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Disney

Magical Ink

June 28, 2024 · Discuss on the GT Forum

https://media.blubrry.com/happypod/media.transistor.fm/ac5ab972/bbb486d9.mp3

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46: Ariel and Stef are joined by Dr. Jinxi Caddel for a heartfelt and art-filled dive into the world of tattoos, identity, and Disney fandom. From full Alice in Wonderland back pieces to tiny churro flash tats, this episode celebrates how ink becomes a personal archive of memory, culture, and connection.

Jinxi shares her journey from tattoo publishing to mental health, co-owning a tattoo shop, and running a private practice for those who color outside the lines. Together, they unpack stigma, nostalgia, and the healing power of self-expression—through Disney and beyond. Whether you’re tattooed, tattoo-curious, or just love a good Dole Whip, this one’s for you.

Summary

00:00 Hosts and guest introductions
02:00 Childhood Disney memories and first tattoos
04:00 Jinxi’s journey from tattoo publishing to psychology
08:00 Stigma, acceptance, and professional visibility
13:00 Tattoos in families and intergenerational storytelling
16:00 Favorite Disney tattoos—characters, quotes, and food!
20:00 Fandoms in ink: Star Wars, Marvel, and park icons
24:00 Flash tattoos and memory markers
28:00 Permanent makeup and cultural ties
32:00 Tattoos as affirmations and emotional touchstones
35:00 Therapeutic meaning behind body art
40:00 Building safe, expressive spaces in education and therapy
46:00 Final reflections and where to find Jinxi’s work

Transcription

00:00:03:20 – 00:00:05:01
Hello, everyone.

00:00:05:01 – 00:00:07:01
Welcome to the Happiest Pod on Earth.

00:00:07:01 – 00:00:07:18
I’m Stef

00:00:07:18 – 00:00:09:12
I’m an educator who uses passions

00:00:09:12 – 00:00:10:09
and fandoms to help

00:00:10:09 – 00:00:11:15
my students grow

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and learn about themselves

00:00:12:19 – 00:00:14:07
and the world around them.

00:00:14:07 – 00:00:16:01
And I’m Ariel, a licensed therapist

00:00:16:01 – 00:00:17:20
who uses clients passions and fandoms

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to help them grow

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and heal from trauma

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and mental and wellness.

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And I am Jinxi

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and I’m a mental health therapist

00:00:25:19 – 00:00:27:12
and a book publisher.

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And the tattoo shop owner,

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in Eugene, Oregon.

00:00:31:11 – 00:00:33:01
I have a practice called Black

00:00:33:01 – 00:00:33:20
Sleep Therapy,

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where, I like to help people who,

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like to color outside the lines.

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That might be black sheep

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or unicorns themselves.

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So I’m happy to be here.

00:00:45:02 – 00:00:46:04
Wonderful.

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And here at Happiest Pod,

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we dissect Disney mediums

00:00:48:19 – 00:00:50:05
So the critical lens. Why?

00:00:50:05 – 00:00:51:15
Because we are more than just fans,

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and we expect more from the mediums

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we consume.

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So, what are we talking about today?

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Well, we have another very

00:00:59:09 – 00:01:01:04
special guest on our podcast.

00:01:01:04 – 00:01:03:04
Welcome, Dr. Jinxi Right?

00:01:03:04 – 00:01:04:05
It is.

00:01:04:05 – 00:01:05:17
Thank you so much.

00:01:05:17 – 00:01:06:11
I appreciate it,

00:01:06:11 – 00:01:08:09
but I’m so happy to be here.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And we’re we have a really fun topic

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to talk about.

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And,

00:01:13:18 – 00:01:16:11
we talk about Disney art on many levels,

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but I think this is a level of Disney

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art that we haven’t quite talked about,

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which is body art and tattoos.

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And,

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I think with the recent,

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I think resurgence of tattoos

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and the accessibility

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to getting tattoos

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has been widely seen and respected.

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And, we just love

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especially going to the parks

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and seeing different

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interpretations of Disney art.

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And also,

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you know,

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we were really curious for you,

00:01:42:17 – 00:01:44:02
Dr. Jinxi

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you’re kind of journey into your

00:01:47:02 – 00:01:49:17
amazing life, I think, as a therapist

00:01:49:17 – 00:01:51:02
and as an artist.

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I think it’s a very unique,

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perspective

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that not many people know about.

00:01:55:10 – 00:01:57:11
Yeah. Well, thank you so much.

00:01:57:11 – 00:02:00:11
I, you know, it’s funny because

00:02:00:17 – 00:02:03:14
as a child, my very first experience

00:02:03:14 – 00:02:07:03
with a tattoo was at Disneyland,

00:02:07:03 – 00:02:10:05
and I was behind a girl in line

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who had a Cheshire

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cat tattoo on her back.

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And I thought it was like,

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the dreamiest thing I had ever seen,

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and I.

00:02:19:01 – 00:02:19:23
I can’t remember

00:02:19:23 – 00:02:22:05
how old I was, but I just

00:02:22:05 – 00:02:25:05
it was locked in and I just knew

00:02:25:05 – 00:02:27:05
someday I wanted tattoos to,

00:02:28:16 – 00:02:30:07
And, I

00:02:30:07 – 00:02:31:16
actually didn’t get

00:02:31:16 – 00:02:34:01
my first tattoo until,

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like,

00:02:34:08 – 00:02:35:13
my mid to late

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20s, after

00:02:36:22 – 00:02:38:17
I had had all of my kids

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and, I was working as a, an editor

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and a writer

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for several,

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tattoo magazines at the time.

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And so that just opened

00:02:51:04 – 00:02:51:19
my world

00:02:51:19 – 00:02:54:04
into all of these incredible artists.

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And,

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my very first tattoo

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was a tiny little cherry on my ankle.

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And,

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and that has since grown into pretty much

00:03:04:03 – 00:03:05:06
I have my whole head

00:03:05:06 – 00:03:08:05
tattooed, down, down to my toes.

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Most of it’s covered.

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I have a couple little spots

00:03:10:21 – 00:03:12:23
that I’m trying to hopefully

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be conservative them with now,

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because I don’t

00:03:15:07 – 00:03:18:07
have much real estate left.

00:03:19:04 – 00:03:20:17
But, that’s a real thing.

00:03:20:17 – 00:03:21:09
That’s a real thing.

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The real estate is limited

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And, you know, I did it,

00:03:25:11 – 00:03:26:21
when I first started,

00:03:26:21 – 00:03:30:01
I was so into the art form

00:03:30:01 – 00:03:33:04
and the, the camaraderie

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and just the whole experience

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of getting tattooed

00:03:36:04 – 00:03:37:20
that I went full force,

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you know, like, once

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I was ready to do it,

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I was like, just going.

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So I.

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I covered up a lot,

00:03:45:14 – 00:03:48:06
you know, my arms, pretty early on,

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a lot of the precious

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real estate got taken up,

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you know, in my early years.

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But, now I’m much more,

00:03:55:12 – 00:03:57:08
you know, thoughtful. I think.

00:03:57:08 – 00:04:00:06
So I worked

00:04:00:06 – 00:04:01:20
in the publishing world

00:04:01:20 – 00:04:04:09
for a long time in the tattoo realm,

00:04:04:09 – 00:04:05:02
and,

00:04:05:02 – 00:04:06:00
eventually worked

00:04:06:00 – 00:04:08:11
for a publishing company in the,

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where I kind of learn

00:04:10:09 – 00:04:13:03
the ropes of how to put books together.

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And then my husband

00:04:14:12 – 00:04:17:12
and I, started Out of Step Books

00:04:17:13 – 00:04:20:13
in, 2010.

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And we made art and tattoo books.

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We still run it,

00:04:24:11 – 00:04:25:23
but we’re both pretty busy

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with lots of things.

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So we haven’t done a book

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for two years now,

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but we did 28 publications,

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including, two children’s books,

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and they’re all somehow tattoo related.

00:04:39:15 – 00:04:40:02
What the

00:04:40:02 – 00:04:41:06
the kids book is

00:04:41:06 – 00:04:42:11
kind of a little dip

00:04:42:11 – 00:04:45:01
into positive psychology

00:04:45:01 – 00:04:47:19
about having a positive mental attitude,

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and it was illustrated

00:04:49:09 – 00:04:51:05
by a tattoo artist.

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And then we have one of the other kids

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books is a little ABC book,

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and it was,

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26 tattoo artists

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each did a letter of the alphabet.

00:05:00:14 – 00:05:03:12
It’s super cute and…. That’s amazing!

00:05:03:12 – 00:05:04:03
Yeah,

00:05:04:03 – 00:05:04:21
it was fun

00:05:04:21 – 00:05:05:21
because we used to go

00:05:05:21 – 00:05:07:09
to a lot of conventions

00:05:07:09 – 00:05:08:07
to sell the books.

00:05:08:07 – 00:05:10:08
And, you know, a lot of tattoo

00:05:10:08 – 00:05:11:19
collectors have children.

00:05:11:19 – 00:05:13:03
Yeah.

00:05:13:03 – 00:05:13:21
It was just. Yeah.

00:05:13:21 – 00:05:16:00
You know, it was pretty awesome

00:05:16:00 – 00:05:17:17
to get to have that.

00:05:17:17 – 00:05:21:12
And then when we moved to,

00:05:21:12 – 00:05:23:03
Eugene, Oregon, we,

00:05:23:03 – 00:05:24:17
opened the, tattoo

00:05:24:17 – 00:05:26:23
shop, called Out of Step Tattoo.

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And at this time,

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I had gone back to school,

00:05:30:01 – 00:05:31:05
many years ago

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to get my masters and my doctorate

00:05:33:11 – 00:05:35:05
in clinical psychology.

00:05:35:05 – 00:05:38:07
So I kind of, I still have

00:05:38:15 – 00:05:42:05
my artistic ties because obviously, it’s

00:05:42:05 – 00:05:43:11
my outlet,

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you know, for the things today,

00:05:45:12 – 00:05:48:01
a part of my self-care.

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And, I need that in my life

00:05:51:02 – 00:05:52:21
to be able to handle the work

00:05:52:21 – 00:05:55:03
I do as a therapist.

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So it’s been a very unique,

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but awesome balance for me.

00:06:01:01 – 00:06:03:08
Yes. Yeah, yeah.

00:06:03:08 – 00:06:04:13
So I’m, I’m hearing

00:06:04:13 – 00:06:05:14
that you got to

00:06:05:14 – 00:06:06:19
really meld together

00:06:06:19 – 00:06:08:02
different parts of yourself

00:06:08:02 – 00:06:09:09
for authenticity

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And I’m hearing that as being

00:06:11:04 – 00:06:11:21
it feeds you.

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It continues to rejuvenate

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you and be a new experience.

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Absolutely.

00:06:16:22 – 00:06:18:19
And the tattoo community

00:06:18:19 – 00:06:21:19
became so important in my life, too.

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You know, they I feel like it’s family.

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And it gave me so much.

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And the artists

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I worked with were so important,

00:06:30:06 – 00:06:31:11
especially on the books.

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We would work with thousands of artists

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from across the world.

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So,

00:06:36:06 – 00:06:38:15
it just became such a part of my life,

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you know?

00:06:39:01 – 00:06:40:19
And honestly,

00:06:40:19 – 00:06:42:17
shout out to the tattoo community,

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because when we were low

00:06:43:23 – 00:06:46:23
on masks and gloves during the pandemic,

00:06:47:08 – 00:06:48:19
a lot of tattoo artists

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donated those things to hospital.

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Like it was vital for us

00:06:52:08 – 00:06:53:06
our ability

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to be able to move forward

00:06:54:19 – 00:06:57:09
and take care of our healing professions.

00:06:57:09 – 00:06:58:14
Absolutely

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I know it’s it’s

00:07:00:11 – 00:07:03:06
really is an incredible community

00:07:03:06 – 00:07:04:09
of people.

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And,

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I, I still I’m

00:07:07:21 – 00:07:09:15
a co-owner of the tattoo shop.

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I don’t get to be

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there as much as I like

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because I’m always in my office.

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But, but my partner, runs it,

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and we have 12 amazing

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artists who are very, dedicated to

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and inclusive environment that,

00:07:25:23 – 00:07:28:23
you know, that just delivers

00:07:28:23 – 00:07:32:05
special and wonderful art to collectors.

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So it’s.

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Yeah, it’s it’s been a it’s been a

00:07:36:20 – 00:07:38:04
I feel super lucky,

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you know, to have been on this journey

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in this way.

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And, you know,

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it’s funny

00:07:43:01 – 00:07:46:05
because when I first went back to school,

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I was really concerned about my tattoos

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because I had very visible,

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you know, head, neck and hand tattoos

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and I didn’t know if, it would be okay.

00:07:57:11 – 00:07:59:20
You know, in my, in the profession

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because I didn’t know if people would

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accept me and hire me.

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But, you know, it’s it’s been,

00:08:08:19 – 00:08:10:11
I don’t feel like my tattoos

00:08:10:11 – 00:08:12:17
have ever held me back at all

00:08:12:17 – 00:08:14:20
in the mental health world. It’s been.

00:08:14:20 – 00:08:15:11
If anything,

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I feel like

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it helps me to connect to my clients.

00:08:19:13 – 00:08:19:17
Yeah.

00:08:19:17 – 00:08:20:12
And,

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I think a lot of people maybe seek me out

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because they,

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they see things

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that they feel related to.

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So it’s it’s been it’s been cool.

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I’m curious.

00:08:33:10 – 00:08:35:16
I know that you have tattoos

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all over your body with visible, Stef?

00:08:37:21 – 00:08:39:07
Do you have tattoos

00:08:39:07 – 00:08:41:10
because you’re in an education space?

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And is that was there worry there or now?

00:08:44:06 – 00:08:45:14
Has the perception changed?

00:08:45:14 – 00:08:46:12
Because I know that

00:08:46:12 – 00:08:47:22
in the mental health field,

00:08:47:22 – 00:08:50:01
we’re allowing clinicians

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to be more authentic,

00:08:51:12 – 00:08:53:11
no longer the blank slate.

00:08:53:11 – 00:08:56:17
So has that, experience you’re having?

00:08:57:21 – 00:09:00:04
No, actually, when I

00:09:00:04 – 00:09:00:18
finish school,

00:09:00:18 – 00:09:01:16
because I finish school

00:09:01:16 – 00:09:02:10
a little bit later,

00:09:02:10 – 00:09:05:06
I got my teaching credential in Masters.

00:09:05:06 – 00:09:06:04
A little bit later.

00:09:06:04 – 00:09:06:16
Wasn’t left,

00:09:06:16 – 00:09:07:16
like, right out of high school.

00:09:07:16 – 00:09:09:11
I worked for a long time,

00:09:09:11 – 00:09:11:02
when I was doing my student teaching,

00:09:11:02 – 00:09:12:09
I met a lot of colleagues,

00:09:12:09 – 00:09:13:23
especially in the schools,

00:09:13:23 – 00:09:16:08
that I was doing my student teaching at,

00:09:16:08 – 00:09:17:20
that had visible tattoos.

00:09:17:20 – 00:09:20:04
Mainly they were on their arms.

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Sometimes they had them on their necks

00:09:21:12 – 00:09:22:08
and things like that.

00:09:22:08 – 00:09:24:21
But now being in Los Angeles, it’s

00:09:24:21 – 00:09:25:13
it was a little bit

00:09:25:13 – 00:09:26:09
more expected

00:09:26:09 – 00:09:28:00
because we are

00:09:28:00 – 00:09:28:06
we were

00:09:28:06 – 00:09:29:10
kind of going into the wave

00:09:29:10 – 00:09:30:13
of younger

00:09:30:13 – 00:09:31:20
educators now

00:09:31:20 – 00:09:32:19
because a lot of our

00:09:32:19 – 00:09:34:12
educators were retiring.

00:09:34:12 – 00:09:35:22
And some of my mentors,

00:09:35:22 – 00:09:37:21
one of my mentors in particular,

00:09:37:21 – 00:09:39:16
he was a musician as well,

00:09:39:16 – 00:09:40:22
but he had been teaching in the

00:09:40:22 – 00:09:43:23
LSD system for somewhat 20 years,

00:09:43:23 – 00:09:46:19
and he had tattoos only on his arms.

00:09:46:19 – 00:09:47:11
But,

00:09:47:11 – 00:09:49:00
it totally took that stigma

00:09:49:00 – 00:09:50:12
away from me immediately.

00:09:50:12 – 00:09:52:05
And then when I got hired

00:09:52:05 – 00:09:54:03
at the school that I’m currently in,

00:09:54:03 – 00:09:56:04
my coworkers, they had tattoos.

00:09:56:04 – 00:09:58:17
This one, they were female and nice.

00:09:58:17 – 00:09:59:20
You know, the kids love them

00:09:59:20 – 00:10:02:05
because they were colorful.

00:10:02:05 – 00:10:04:02
Know the parents that we serve.

00:10:04:02 – 00:10:05:22
They have tattoos, too.

00:10:05:22 – 00:10:07:09
And I think

00:10:07:09 – 00:10:08:10
now it’s it’s

00:10:08:10 – 00:10:10:14
more of an expression of their art

00:10:10:14 – 00:10:12:05
and things that they love

00:10:12:05 – 00:10:14:12
as opposed to an identity marker.

00:10:14:12 – 00:10:16:21
And, I know there was so many years

00:10:16:21 – 00:10:18:22
that it was a negative identity marker,

00:10:18:22 – 00:10:20:13
especially in certain areas of,

00:10:20:13 – 00:10:21:21
you know, Los Angeles

00:10:21:21 – 00:10:22:23
and other big cities.

00:10:22:23 – 00:10:25:21
But I think slowly that stigma

00:10:25:21 – 00:10:27:09
has kind of gone away now

00:10:27:09 – 00:10:29:17
because these people,

00:10:29:17 – 00:10:31:08
they’re just here with their families

00:10:31:08 – 00:10:32:08
and they just want their kids

00:10:32:08 – 00:10:33:09
to have a safe space

00:10:33:09 – 00:10:35:01
where they can be themselves.

00:10:35:01 – 00:10:36:23
So, I mean, I have

00:10:36:23 – 00:10:39:16
two visible tattoos, but I have,

00:10:39:16 – 00:10:41:03
you know, hope

00:10:41:03 – 00:10:42:05
I’ve been wanting to have more,

00:10:42:05 – 00:10:44:03
but having kids in the middle of it

00:10:44:03 – 00:10:45:18
got kind of hard.

00:10:45:18 – 00:10:47:19
But it’s true.

00:10:47:19 – 00:10:49:07
But my husband, he’s,

00:10:49:07 – 00:10:50:05
you know,

00:10:50:05 – 00:10:51:04
we’ve mentioned before

00:10:51:04 – 00:10:52:13
he’s enlisted in the military,

00:10:52:13 – 00:10:56:09
and he is all tatted up, but,

00:10:56:09 – 00:10:56:18
you know,

00:10:56:18 – 00:10:57:16
even though

00:10:57:16 – 00:10:59:15
they have certain regulations,

00:10:59:15 – 00:11:03:14
I think when he changes into his,

00:11:03:14 – 00:11:04:20
physical training clothes,

00:11:04:20 – 00:11:06:19
everyone’s like, oh, my gosh,

00:11:06:19 – 00:11:08:17
I didn’t know you were blasting

00:11:08:17 – 00:11:10:03
all your arms and legs.

00:11:10:03 – 00:11:13:03
And it’s a conversation piece.

00:11:13:05 – 00:11:14:14
And, yeah,

00:11:14:14 – 00:11:15:11
you know, for him,

00:11:15:11 – 00:11:18:08
we were just at Disney World recently,

00:11:18:08 – 00:11:20:20
and so many people come up to him

00:11:20:20 – 00:11:22:21
and ask him, hey, man, I love your ink.

00:11:22:21 – 00:11:24:09
Like I really love the art.

00:11:24:09 – 00:11:25:03
You know, like,

00:11:25:03 – 00:11:26:09
you know, just kudos to you.

00:11:26:09 – 00:11:27:12
And that’s how they strike

00:11:27:12 – 00:11:29:07
conversation and commonality.

00:11:29:07 – 00:11:30:07
And even though

00:11:30:07 – 00:11:31:13
they weren’t Disney tattoos,

00:11:31:13 – 00:11:34:00
they just admire the work of the artist.

00:11:34:00 – 00:11:35:18
And that in itself creates community.

00:11:35:18 – 00:11:38:08
And it’s so beautiful to see. Totally.

00:11:38:08 – 00:11:41:17
I, I love to hear that so many educators

00:11:41:20 – 00:11:43:11
have visible tattoos.

00:11:43:11 – 00:11:44:19
That makes me so happy.

00:11:44:19 – 00:11:46:23
It’s so, so awesome.

00:11:46:23 – 00:11:50:12
I, I worked for a short period of time

00:11:50:12 – 00:11:51:06
in high school

00:11:51:06 – 00:11:52:00
and middle school

00:11:52:00 – 00:11:53:01
as a therapist,

00:11:53:01 – 00:11:54:10
and I again,

00:11:54:10 – 00:11:55:16
I was worried,

00:11:55:16 – 00:11:57:00
you know, that it

00:11:57:00 – 00:11:59:20
it might not be cool with the parents and

00:11:59:20 – 00:12:01:06
but it just

00:12:01:06 – 00:12:03:14
I think as you said, the stigma

00:12:03:14 – 00:12:05:12
has changed

00:12:05:12 – 00:12:06:16
You know we are

00:12:06:16 – 00:12:08:01
we’re it’s just different.

00:12:08:01 – 00:12:08:14
And people

00:12:08:14 – 00:12:09:15
are accepting

00:12:09:15 – 00:12:12:13
and appreciating the art form.

00:12:12:13 – 00:12:15:16
And I love to hear that for myself.

00:12:15:16 – 00:12:17:09
I do not have any tattoos.

00:12:17:09 – 00:12:19:02
However,

00:12:19:02 – 00:12:20:15
my grandmother got her

00:12:20:15 – 00:12:22:08
first tattoo in her 60s

00:12:22:08 – 00:12:23:15
because she couldn’t

00:12:23:15 – 00:12:26:15
draw her eyeliner on.

00:12:27:00 – 00:12:28:23
It was because of her arthritis.

00:12:28:23 – 00:12:30:12
So she went to the doctor

00:12:30:12 – 00:12:32:19
and the doctor did a tattoo. Eyeliner.

00:12:32:19 – 00:12:34:21
Oh, that’s so cute.

00:12:34:21 – 00:12:38:05
I know my aunt in her 60s

00:12:38:05 – 00:12:39:11
got her first tattoo

00:12:39:11 – 00:12:41:04
and it was lip liner again

00:12:41:04 – 00:12:42:23
because she didn’t know the time.

00:12:42:23 – 00:12:45:11
So I think I have to uphold that

00:12:45:11 – 00:12:47:15
tradition to where my first tattoo

00:12:47:15 – 00:12:49:17
needs to be on my face. And my 60s.

00:12:49:17 – 00:12:52:07
That’s what I’ve decided.

00:12:52:07 – 00:12:53:16
That’s a big commitment.

00:12:54:22 – 00:12:56:02
Yeah.

00:12:56:02 – 00:12:56:20
You know,

00:12:56:20 – 00:12:57:23
permanent

00:12:57:23 – 00:12:59:20
makeup artists are incredible

00:12:59:20 – 00:13:03:07
to that whole that whole, craft has, has

00:13:03:07 – 00:13:06:15
just changed leaps and bounds as well.

00:13:06:15 – 00:13:08:12
And it’s it’s

00:13:08:12 – 00:13:09:07
how amazing

00:13:09:07 – 00:13:12:07
is it right to be able to have that that.

00:13:12:11 – 00:13:13:18
Yeah. Yeah.

00:13:13:18 – 00:13:14:23
And I think the first

00:13:14:23 – 00:13:16:18
like the first experience

00:13:16:18 – 00:13:17:12
that I had

00:13:17:12 – 00:13:18:17
with my family members

00:13:18:17 – 00:13:20:05
getting anything that resembled

00:13:20:05 – 00:13:22:10
a tattoo was permanent makeup

00:13:22:10 – 00:13:23:17
because I remember

00:13:23:17 – 00:13:26:01
my aunts would go back to the Philippines

00:13:26:01 – 00:13:28:05
and they would get permanent makeup done

00:13:28:05 – 00:13:29:11
because they simply just

00:13:29:11 – 00:13:30:19
didn’t want to do the routine

00:13:30:19 – 00:13:31:18
every single day.

00:13:31:18 – 00:13:32:02
Yeah.

00:13:32:02 – 00:13:32:18
And I was

00:13:32:18 – 00:13:33:13
and I know the ink

00:13:33:13 – 00:13:34:22
pattern was a little bit different

00:13:34:22 – 00:13:36:00
because it would like,

00:13:36:00 – 00:13:37:14
somehow fade to like blue

00:13:37:14 – 00:13:39:04
or purple after a while.

00:13:40:05 – 00:13:41:04
But now, I mean, the

00:13:41:04 – 00:13:42:14
technology has changed

00:13:42:14 – 00:13:43:09
because I was like,

00:13:43:09 – 00:13:45:03
I like, is that a rite of passage

00:13:45:03 – 00:13:46:05
that I have to do,

00:13:46:05 – 00:13:47:07
like one day

00:13:47:07 – 00:13:49:13
when I don’t have any eyebrows,

00:13:49:13 – 00:13:50:10
which is fine,

00:13:50:10 – 00:13:50:22
but I don’t know

00:13:50:22 – 00:13:53:01
if I like the color blue. Yeah.

00:13:53:01 – 00:13:55:05
But luckily,

00:13:55:05 – 00:13:56:17
you know, I’m smart enough to know

00:13:56:17 – 00:13:57:19
now that the technology

00:13:57:19 – 00:13:59:08
has changed to wear,

00:13:59:08 – 00:14:02:03
you know, stay the same color.

00:14:02:03 – 00:14:03:14
But, yeah,

00:14:03:14 – 00:14:04:18
I don’t have to live with myself.

00:14:04:18 – 00:14:07:17
The permanent eye makeup I love.

00:14:07:17 – 00:14:08:22
Yeah, the ink.

00:14:08:22 – 00:14:10:21
Companies have come

00:14:10:21 – 00:14:13:05
so far to everything.

00:14:13:05 – 00:14:13:21
Oh, man.

00:14:13:21 – 00:14:16:23
It compared to when we started,

00:14:17:14 – 00:14:21:06
you know, 25, almost 30 years ago,

00:14:21:19 – 00:14:22:20
getting tattooed, it’s

00:14:22:20 – 00:14:25:08
changed so, so significantly.

00:14:25:08 – 00:14:28:19
And it’s so exciting to see all of the,

00:14:30:10 – 00:14:31:23
Leaps and bounds

00:14:31:23 – 00:14:34:03
It’s it’s become. It’s pretty.

00:14:34:03 – 00:14:35:11
It’s pretty exciting.

00:14:35:11 – 00:14:36:18
Okay, well, as we know,

00:14:36:18 – 00:14:38:15
this is a Disney podcast.

00:14:38:15 – 00:14:41:15
So yeah, the fact that you own a tattoo

00:14:41:16 – 00:14:43:21
shop, what are the Disney tattoos

00:14:43:21 – 00:14:44:20
that you’ve seen?

00:14:44:20 – 00:14:48:13
I do know for us on episode 39,

00:14:48:13 – 00:14:49:18
The Battle of the Pumpkin King,

00:14:49:18 – 00:14:52:05
we had an author named Dan Conner on,

00:14:52:05 – 00:14:54:10
and he wrote a graphic novel,

00:14:54:10 – 00:14:56:06
oh, The Battle for Pumpkin King.

00:14:56:06 – 00:14:56:21
And he said he’s

00:14:56:21 – 00:14:58:04
seen so many Nightmare

00:14:58:04 – 00:15:01:02
Before Christmas tattoos at conventions

00:15:01:02 – 00:15:01:14
And that’s, like,

00:15:01:14 – 00:15:04:06
very popular characters to have.

00:15:04:06 – 00:15:05:02
So cool.

00:15:05:02 – 00:15:06:09
Well,

00:15:06:09 – 00:15:09:09
I mean, just because of the beloved

00:15:09:21 – 00:15:12:11
ness of Disney characters, it’s

00:15:12:11 – 00:15:14:10
it’s always going to be such

00:15:14:10 – 00:15:16:02
a popular thing.

00:15:16:02 – 00:15:16:16
You know,

00:15:16:16 – 00:15:17:09
I have,

00:15:17:09 – 00:15:21:11
the little oyster babies on my arm,

00:15:21:11 – 00:15:22:07
and my whole,

00:15:22:07 – 00:15:25:07
my whole back is, Alice in Wonderland.

00:15:25:10 – 00:15:27:02
Disney Alice

00:15:27:02 – 00:15:28:10
Yeah.

00:15:28:10 – 00:15:30:19
So, I love that.

00:15:30:19 – 00:15:32:13
I love them, too.

00:15:32:13 – 00:15:35:07
I oh, man, I can’t even

00:15:35:07 – 00:15:36:23
I don’t even know where to start with.

00:15:36:23 – 00:15:41:05
I think a lot of people do, quotes,

00:15:41:05 – 00:15:41:21
you know,

00:15:41:21 – 00:15:45:20
things like, like Hakuna matata or,

00:15:45:22 – 00:15:47:17
you know,

00:15:47:17 – 00:15:48:12
doing the,

00:15:48:12 – 00:15:51:12
To infinity and beyond things like that, you know,

00:15:51:12 – 00:15:54:09
but then the characters I, you see

00:15:54:09 – 00:15:55:05
such a huge,

00:15:56:04 – 00:15:58:10
array.

00:15:58:10 – 00:16:00:04
I think Tinkerbell has always

00:16:00:04 – 00:16:03:04
been very, popular.

00:16:03:06 – 00:16:06:09
She’s, you know, just the magical element

00:16:06:09 – 00:16:09:09
and, her feistiness and,

00:16:10:03 – 00:16:12:22
Alice in Wonderland does seem to be

00:16:12:22 – 00:16:14:14
still very popular.

00:16:14:14 – 00:16:17:16
You know, Lilo and Stitch,

00:16:17:17 – 00:16:19:21
I think we’ve seen a lot.

00:16:19:21 – 00:16:24:21
Ohana, just, you know, that

00:16:24:22 – 00:16:26:06
that whole

00:16:26:06 – 00:16:27:19
family,

00:16:27:19 – 00:16:31:03
anything that can tie things together

00:16:31:03 – 00:16:34:03
that you hold dear to yourself.

00:16:34:22 – 00:16:38:09
I see a lot of Disney theme park tattoos.

00:16:39:11 – 00:16:42:14
I recently saw a cool, on Instagram.

00:16:42:14 – 00:16:46:10
I saw a cool, Dole whip, tattoo.

00:16:46:16 – 00:16:48:01
That is so cute.

00:16:48:01 – 00:16:48:22
And,

00:16:48:22 – 00:16:53:22
just like the Mickey Mouse, ice cream bars

00:16:53:22 – 00:16:56:21
of course, the castle is huge.

00:16:56:21 – 00:16:58:10
And,

00:16:58:10 – 00:17:00:07
Oh, man, it’s endless, right?

00:17:00:07 – 00:17:01:12
Because everybody

00:17:01:12 – 00:17:05:03
has their special character or saying

00:17:05:08 – 00:17:06:21
or memory

00:17:06:21 – 00:17:09:05
that they want to keep with them.

00:17:09:05 – 00:17:10:06
And yeah,

00:17:10:06 – 00:17:14:01
I think that element of nostalgia, and,

00:17:14:01 – 00:17:17:14
and also just the, associations

00:17:17:14 – 00:17:20:09
that it can have for people is so,

00:17:20:09 – 00:17:22:15
so special. So yeah.

00:17:23:20 – 00:17:24:15
Yeah, yeah,

00:17:24:15 – 00:17:25:17
I definitely seen

00:17:25:17 – 00:17:27:05
a lot of the food items

00:17:27:05 – 00:17:29:02
as like flash tattoos

00:17:29:02 – 00:17:30:19
because they’re just so easy to do

00:17:30:19 – 00:17:31:21
and they’re very quick.

00:17:31:21 – 00:17:33:14
And it’s just a little trinket

00:17:33:14 – 00:17:35:16
of like a churro or like you say,

00:17:35:16 – 00:17:38:00
a Mickey pops or a Dole whip

00:17:38:00 – 00:17:39:14
or even like a popcorn bucket.

00:17:39:14 – 00:17:40:12
I’ve seen,

00:17:40:12 – 00:17:41:17
but yeah,

00:17:41:17 – 00:17:43:15
I it’s just as like, simple as,

00:17:43:15 – 00:17:45:06
you know, getting an enamel pin.

00:17:45:06 – 00:17:45:21
I feel like

00:17:45:21 – 00:17:48:01
it’s like you collect those things

00:17:48:01 – 00:17:49:23
to show on your body as opposed

00:17:49:23 – 00:17:51:17
to, like, your bag.

00:17:51:17 – 00:17:52:13
You know, it’s something

00:17:52:13 – 00:17:53:17
that you’re probably going to love

00:17:53:17 – 00:17:55:18
forever is tied to a special memory,

00:17:55:18 – 00:17:57:21
which is, you know, I think pretty cool.

00:17:57:21 – 00:17:58:21
Well,

00:17:58:21 – 00:17:59:19
Disney has, like,

00:17:59:19 – 00:18:01:13
Marvel and Star Wars like.

00:18:01:13 – 00:18:02:15
And that franchise.

00:18:02:15 – 00:18:05:18
Oh, more and more of those tattoos.

00:18:05:18 – 00:18:08:06
Lots of, like, Captain America’s shield.

00:18:08:06 – 00:18:11:06
So lots of like Wakanda Forever.

00:18:11:06 – 00:18:13:16
I, I’ve seen a numerous amount of those.

00:18:13:16 – 00:18:15:10
And then every kind of lightsaber.

00:18:15:10 – 00:18:18:18
Imagine light side, dark side rebels.

00:18:18:18 – 00:18:19:13
Yeah.

00:18:19:13 – 00:18:22:08
I wasn’t even thinking of the Star Wars

00:18:22:08 – 00:18:23:12
part of it because,

00:18:23:12 – 00:18:26:12
as you know, that is just

00:18:26:15 – 00:18:28:05
an incredibly huge

00:18:28:05 – 00:18:30:10
genre of tattoos in itself.

00:18:30:10 – 00:18:32:18
There are some tattoo artists who

00:18:32:18 – 00:18:33:19
that’s all they do

00:18:33:19 – 00:18:35:07
because they have such

00:18:35:07 – 00:18:36:08
a demand for it

00:18:36:08 – 00:18:38:20
that that’s all they could keep up,

00:18:38:20 – 00:18:39:18
you know?

00:18:39:18 – 00:18:41:20
And same with Disney.

00:18:41:20 – 00:18:43:21
There are so many tattoo artists

00:18:43:21 – 00:18:47:20
who specialize in Disney themed tattoos,

00:18:47:20 – 00:18:49:05
and they have such huge

00:18:49:05 – 00:18:50:04
waiting lists

00:18:50:04 – 00:18:53:02
that they don’t need to do anything else,

00:18:53:02 – 00:18:54:04
you know?

00:18:54:04 – 00:18:54:22
Oh,

00:18:54:22 – 00:18:58:01
I was thinking to like the glass slipper.

00:18:58:15 – 00:19:00:22
The apple from Snow White

00:19:00:22 – 00:19:03:14
You know, just all those iconic

00:19:03:14 – 00:19:06:00
things that that, you know,

00:19:06:00 – 00:19:07:07
as soon as you look at it.

00:19:07:07 – 00:19:09:16
What it is, Yes.

00:19:09:16 – 00:19:11:17
And same with the food.

00:19:11:17 – 00:19:15:17
Those things are so memorable.

00:19:15:22 – 00:19:16:13
You know,

00:19:16:13 – 00:19:18:23
we we all know exactly what it is

00:19:18:23 – 00:19:20:12
as soon as you see it.

00:19:20:12 – 00:19:22:21
So. Yeah, like you said, like iconic.

00:19:24:06 – 00:19:25:03
Yes.

00:19:25:03 – 00:19:27:02
It. And

00:19:27:02 – 00:19:30:05
like nobody else can do it like Disney.

00:19:30:08 – 00:19:30:19
Right.

00:19:30:19 – 00:19:33:21
So I feel like it’s just it

00:19:34:06 – 00:19:37:12
you see it and you know and it’s also has

00:19:37:18 – 00:19:39:16
a special meaning to the,

00:19:39:16 – 00:19:42:05
the person who’s wearing it.

00:19:42:05 – 00:19:43:00
Yeah.

00:19:43:00 – 00:19:45:01
I’m curious to know, are there

00:19:45:01 – 00:19:47:16
people still a little embarrassed

00:19:47:16 – 00:19:49:14
that they’re getting a Disney tattoo

00:19:49:14 – 00:19:50:09
that you’ve seen?

00:19:50:09 – 00:19:51:19
Because, you know,

00:19:51:19 – 00:19:54:04
there’s talk about Disney adults

00:19:54:04 – 00:19:55:02
and, you know, like, oh,

00:19:55:02 – 00:19:56:03
that’s so childish.

00:19:56:03 – 00:19:57:15
And I know that some

00:19:57:15 – 00:19:58:07
sometimes, I mean,

00:19:58:07 – 00:20:00:03
usually a tattoo is symbolize,

00:20:00:03 – 00:20:00:19
you know, to

00:20:00:19 – 00:20:02:19
to make you appear a certain way,

00:20:02:19 – 00:20:04:20
maybe intimidating or what have you.

00:20:04:20 – 00:20:07:01
But has there people been you know,

00:20:07:01 – 00:20:08:09
I do want to get this tattoo,

00:20:08:09 – 00:20:12:01
but I’m a little embarrassed, you know,

00:20:12:13 – 00:20:13:08
I can’t

00:20:13:08 – 00:20:16:01
I can’t recall anything like that.

00:20:16:01 – 00:20:18:06
I’m sure that that happens.

00:20:18:06 – 00:20:19:20
But I feel like

00:20:19:20 – 00:20:20:22
getting tattooed

00:20:20:22 – 00:20:23:19
is such an empowering thing

00:20:23:19 – 00:20:25:19
that when you decide

00:20:25:19 – 00:20:26:06
that you’re

00:20:26:06 – 00:20:27:19
dedicating this space

00:20:27:19 – 00:20:29:07
on your body to something,

00:20:30:06 – 00:20:31:22
if that’s what you love and

00:20:31:22 – 00:20:32:17
care about,

00:20:32:17 – 00:20:35:17
you’re probably really proud to wear it.

00:20:35:17 – 00:20:36:08
You know,

00:20:36:08 – 00:20:37:09
regardless of how

00:20:37:09 – 00:20:39:08
the rest of the world sees you.

00:20:39:08 – 00:20:42:11
And I think that Disney,

00:20:42:19 – 00:20:45:23
Disney adults, Disney fans like that.

00:20:45:23 – 00:20:48:11
They love it, right? That’s true.

00:20:48:11 – 00:20:48:18
It.

00:20:48:18 – 00:20:51:21
Yeah, but I’m sure that that’s there.

00:20:52:07 – 00:20:54:15
I, I can’t think of an instance

00:20:54:15 – 00:20:56:07
where I have seen that,

00:20:56:07 – 00:20:58:23
but I’m sure that, you know,

00:20:58:23 – 00:21:01:23
people who observe of them might still

00:21:02:17 – 00:21:05:15
say that talking about the empowerment

00:21:05:15 – 00:21:06:04
for you,

00:21:06:04 – 00:21:07:01
what have you noticed

00:21:07:01 – 00:21:08:08
as the benefits

00:21:08:08 – 00:21:09:14
of tattooing,

00:21:09:14 – 00:21:12:08
the benefits of getting a tattoo

00:21:12:08 – 00:21:13:04
on the end?

00:21:13:04 – 00:21:16:08
I feel like it’s such an endless list.

00:21:16:13 – 00:21:19:04
You know,

00:21:19:04 – 00:21:21:01
I think it’s so it can become

00:21:21:01 – 00:21:24:01
so connected to a person’s identity

00:21:24:03 – 00:21:26:05
and what they hold,

00:21:26:05 – 00:21:28:07
important to themselves.

00:21:28:07 – 00:21:29:01
It can

00:21:29:01 – 00:21:32:20
and it can encompass past memories,

00:21:32:22 – 00:21:35:08
things that have happened in your life

00:21:35:08 – 00:21:38:04
as well as dreams for your future.

00:21:38:04 – 00:21:42:06
And, I think, like we talked about

00:21:42:06 – 00:21:44:05
with the nostalgia,

00:21:44:05 – 00:21:45:04
things that

00:21:45:04 – 00:21:47:07
have been important to you

00:21:47:07 – 00:21:51:04
in your childhood that you want to relive

00:21:51:04 – 00:21:55:19
and remember, I think a really big thing

00:21:55:19 – 00:21:56:10
I’ve seen

00:21:56:10 – 00:21:58:05
is that community,

00:21:58:05 – 00:22:00:11
sense of belongingness

00:22:00:11 – 00:22:02:16
that can be so important

00:22:02:16 – 00:22:04:23
to our mental health and well-being.

00:22:04:23 – 00:22:06:02
You know, having

00:22:06:02 – 00:22:08:20
those social identities that,

00:22:08:20 – 00:22:12:01
that, you know, you belong somewhere.

00:22:12:04 – 00:22:15:04
It can be so empowering for somebody.

00:22:15:15 – 00:22:18:15
And is that form of expression

00:22:18:18 – 00:22:20:11
because that as we know

00:22:20:11 – 00:22:23:12
that when you decide to take that on,

00:22:23:18 – 00:22:25:18
to wear it on your body,

00:22:25:18 – 00:22:28:08
you’re giving a bold statement

00:22:28:08 – 00:22:32:02
about, about yourself and, yeah,

00:22:32:04 – 00:22:34:06
what you’re willing to,

00:22:34:06 – 00:22:36:09
portray to the world.

00:22:37:20 – 00:22:39:01
I see

00:22:39:01 – 00:22:39:16
a lot

00:22:39:16 – 00:22:43:05
of my clients do I see wear tattoos,

00:22:43:10 – 00:22:46:17
and we use it so often in the work

00:22:46:17 – 00:22:49:17
just because it can be,

00:22:49:18 – 00:22:51:22
such a form of healing.

00:22:51:22 – 00:22:54:22
If you’re overcoming trauma

00:22:55:00 – 00:22:56:10
and you want to

00:22:56:10 – 00:22:59:01
learn how to take that power back,

00:22:59:01 – 00:23:01:18
it can be just great reminders

00:23:01:18 – 00:23:02:22
to look down

00:23:02:22 – 00:23:03:20
at something

00:23:03:20 – 00:23:09:04
that helps you to stay strong or a, or,

00:23:09:06 – 00:23:12:04
a quote or something that

00:23:12:04 – 00:23:13:16
that it has been

00:23:13:16 – 00:23:15:22
important in your healing.

00:23:15:22 – 00:23:17:02
Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:17:02 – 00:23:19:19
I, I for me, it

00:23:19:19 – 00:23:21:16
it has become a very important

00:23:21:16 – 00:23:23:19
part of my identity.

00:23:23:19 – 00:23:26:15
I think it helped me to become,

00:23:26:15 – 00:23:29:19
to step outside of

00:23:31:02 – 00:23:33:07
barriers that were created for me

00:23:33:07 – 00:23:35:04
as a child and,

00:23:35:04 – 00:23:38:02
and be able to kind of become

00:23:38:02 – 00:23:39:11
my own person.

00:23:39:11 – 00:23:42:08
And as you, as you weave them

00:23:42:08 – 00:23:43:12
all together,

00:23:43:12 – 00:23:45:14
that becomes stronger and stronger.

00:23:45:14 – 00:23:48:02
It did for me. Yeah.

00:23:48:02 – 00:23:51:01
So it it’s, I don’t know, I,

00:23:51:01 – 00:23:52:21
I just for me, it’s

00:23:52:21 – 00:23:55:08
been such an incredible part

00:23:55:08 – 00:23:56:14
of my own journey

00:23:56:14 – 00:23:58:04
and tool to use

00:23:58:04 – 00:23:59:17
with people that I work with.

00:24:01:10 – 00:24:03:01
I think it really gives another meaning

00:24:03:01 – 00:24:05:09
to being comfortable in your skin. Right?

00:24:05:09 – 00:24:05:23
Because I think

00:24:05:23 – 00:24:08:02
once you get past that barrier of,

00:24:08:02 – 00:24:09:09
hey, this is me,

00:24:09:09 – 00:24:10:04
I’m just going to wear it

00:24:10:04 – 00:24:12:14
proudly on my body.

00:24:12:14 – 00:24:13:21
That you don’t have to think about it

00:24:13:21 – 00:24:14:20
consciously anymore.

00:24:14:20 – 00:24:16:07
You’re not so much in your head

00:24:16:07 – 00:24:17:12
and you’re just like, hey,

00:24:17:12 – 00:24:18:14
and this is it.

00:24:18:14 – 00:24:20:18
Just accept me as I am or,

00:24:20:18 – 00:24:22:21
you know, move along. You sort of thing.

00:24:22:21 – 00:24:24:06
It totally.

00:24:24:06 – 00:24:26:02
And and that, you know,

00:24:26:02 – 00:24:27:09
when people have been

00:24:27:09 – 00:24:28:23
through really hard things,

00:24:28:23 – 00:24:31:12
in their lives, sometimes you,

00:24:31:12 – 00:24:33:05
you need that.

00:24:33:05 – 00:24:35:06
You just need

00:24:35:06 – 00:24:37:06
whatever tool that is.

00:24:37:06 – 00:24:37:18
And,

00:24:37:18 – 00:24:40:18
and sometimes tattoos can just be such,

00:24:40:19 – 00:24:43:09
helpful part of that,

00:24:43:09 – 00:24:44:12
I think, to,

00:24:44:12 – 00:24:46:21
to help somebody to make those decisions,

00:24:46:21 – 00:24:49:06
make those commitments and,

00:24:49:06 – 00:24:51:09
and then proudly wear it.

00:24:51:09 – 00:24:51:17
Is it

00:24:51:17 – 00:24:53:02
something that you

00:24:53:02 – 00:24:55:03
hold with you every day?

00:24:55:03 – 00:24:58:03
And that can be such a great reminder?

00:24:58:09 – 00:25:02:05
Yeah, I noticed in my practice,

00:25:02:05 – 00:25:04:06
when we are talking about tattoos,

00:25:04:06 – 00:25:05:20
it often aligns with someone’s

00:25:05:20 – 00:25:07:23
grief experience. Right? With them.

00:25:07:23 – 00:25:08:06
Yeah.

00:25:08:06 – 00:25:11:09
Or a date, or an image.

00:25:11:18 – 00:25:13:15
And the really beautiful thing about

00:25:13:15 – 00:25:15:19
it is not only does it honor that loss,

00:25:15:19 – 00:25:17:10
but it opens the door

00:25:17:10 – 00:25:19:07
to be able to talk about this person.

00:25:19:07 – 00:25:20:04
And I know for

00:25:20:04 – 00:25:20:18
my clients

00:25:20:18 – 00:25:21:21
recovering from grief,

00:25:21:21 – 00:25:24:21
everyone’s afraid to like, make them sad.

00:25:25:02 – 00:25:26:01
Oh, we don’t mention it.

00:25:26:01 – 00:25:27:02
We don’t say anything

00:25:27:02 – 00:25:28:07
because we don’t want to.

00:25:28:07 – 00:25:30:01
We don’t want to bring stuff up.

00:25:30:01 – 00:25:31:08
And they want to talk

00:25:31:08 – 00:25:32:18
about the person they lost.

00:25:32:18 – 00:25:34:06
They want to celebrate them

00:25:34:06 – 00:25:35:22
It doesn’t just bring sadness, it

00:25:35:22 – 00:25:37:18
brings joy and lots of nostalgia,

00:25:37:18 – 00:25:39:09
lots of loving memories.

00:25:39:09 – 00:25:41:18
And with a tattoo with a beautiful image,

00:25:41:18 – 00:25:43:02
someone will ask about it

00:25:43:02 – 00:25:44:08
and it opens up the door

00:25:44:08 – 00:25:45:15
to have the conversation.

00:25:45:15 – 00:25:47:23
And it didn’t start from them

00:25:47:23 – 00:25:49:05
asking out of fear.

00:25:49:05 – 00:25:51:05
Was curiosity right?

00:25:51:05 – 00:25:53:07
That oh, that you nailed it.

00:25:53:07 – 00:25:57:00
That’s that’s so, so powerful, isn’t it?

00:25:57:00 – 00:26:00:00
Because memorial tattoos,

00:26:00:03 – 00:26:02:06
they can mean so much to people

00:26:02:06 – 00:26:04:19
and as you said, opening that door

00:26:04:19 – 00:26:07:20
and being able to have a conversation

00:26:07:20 – 00:26:10:23
starter that, in fact, it’s funny,

00:26:10:23 – 00:26:14:10
is that because I do have a client who,

00:26:14:21 – 00:26:18:03
his father passed away and

00:26:18:11 – 00:26:20:05
was a guitar player

00:26:20:05 – 00:26:23:05
and got a tattoo of a guitar,

00:26:23:05 – 00:26:26:05
with, like, the banner that says Dad

00:26:26:07 – 00:26:28:03
And,

00:26:28:03 – 00:26:31:00
that has happened so many times for them

00:26:31:00 – 00:26:32:08
where you know,

00:26:32:08 – 00:26:34:03
somebody comments on the tattoo,

00:26:34:03 – 00:26:34:21
and then

00:26:34:21 – 00:26:38:10
they get to explain how important

00:26:38:10 – 00:26:39:04
and meaningful

00:26:39:04 – 00:26:42:16
that is without, as you said, making,

00:26:42:16 – 00:26:43:05
you know,

00:26:43:05 – 00:26:45:04
that helps them to open the door

00:26:45:04 – 00:26:46:01
to talk about it

00:26:46:01 – 00:26:47:11
so that they’re

00:26:47:11 – 00:26:49:01
the person on the receiving end

00:26:49:01 – 00:26:50:12
doesn’t feel

00:26:50:12 – 00:26:52:10
bad or wonder about

00:26:52:10 – 00:26:54:22
when it’s appropriate to talk.

00:26:54:22 – 00:26:58:14
And memorial tattoos are so special.

00:26:58:14 – 00:27:01:14
And whether it’s it’s a portrait of a

00:27:02:03 – 00:27:05:22
loved one or a date or name or a pet,

00:27:05:22 – 00:27:10:08
I have a tattoo of a special little kitty

00:27:10:08 – 00:27:13:11
that we lost a few years ago that I see

00:27:13:11 – 00:27:16:11
every day, and I it means so much to me.

00:27:16:18 – 00:27:19:20
And yeah, I, I agree, memorial

00:27:19:20 – 00:27:22:21
tattoos are such a gift, you know,

00:27:23:02 – 00:27:26:07
because it it helps a person to heal

00:27:26:07 – 00:27:29:11
and keep that with them in a positive way

00:27:30:01 – 00:27:31:21
and, and help the world

00:27:31:21 – 00:27:34:14
around them to also feel comfortable.

00:27:34:21 – 00:27:35:18
Yeah, definitely.

00:27:35:18 – 00:27:36:23
And you know, on the note

00:27:36:23 – 00:27:38:06
of telling a story,

00:27:38:06 – 00:27:39:14
whether it’s a story of grief

00:27:39:14 – 00:27:41:00
or a story of love,

00:27:41:00 – 00:27:43:13
we also know that tattoos are a symbol

00:27:43:13 – 00:27:45:15
of cultural expression as well.

00:27:45:15 – 00:27:46:21
So I know that,

00:27:46:21 – 00:27:47:06
you know,

00:27:47:06 – 00:27:49:04
many more people are honing in

00:27:49:04 – 00:27:51:10
on their cultural expression.

00:27:51:10 – 00:27:52:13
I know for myself,

00:27:52:13 – 00:27:54:10
and I know we’re Filipina Americans,

00:27:54:10 – 00:27:56:06
and so many Filipinos

00:27:56:06 – 00:27:58:08
are tapping into that,

00:27:58:08 – 00:28:01:14
sense of, you know, tribe and family

00:28:01:14 – 00:28:03:02
to an ancient place

00:28:03:02 – 00:28:04:07
that we we’ve never

00:28:04:07 – 00:28:06:04
experienced will want to grow,

00:28:06:04 – 00:28:06:21
you know, closer

00:28:06:21 – 00:28:08:16
to where I know

00:28:08:16 – 00:28:10:07
that, you know, for Disney fans,

00:28:10:07 – 00:28:11:09
they want to be connected

00:28:11:09 – 00:28:12:07
to certain cultures

00:28:12:07 – 00:28:14:09
that they might not be connected to.

00:28:14:09 – 00:28:17:21
But to use tattoos is a bridge to

00:28:17:21 – 00:28:19:04
something like that.

00:28:19:04 – 00:28:22:14
So for have you seen like, certain ways

00:28:22:14 – 00:28:24:18
that people have embraced kind of,

00:28:24:18 – 00:28:27:00
you know, that culture in that way?

00:28:27:00 – 00:28:28:18
Oh for sure. I mean,

00:28:30:03 – 00:28:33:08
first, it’s so it’s so special

00:28:33:08 – 00:28:34:00
to be able

00:28:34:00 – 00:28:35:01
to understand

00:28:35:01 – 00:28:37:08
some of the roots of tattooing.

00:28:37:08 – 00:28:39:17
Like the Tā Moko,

00:28:39:17 – 00:28:42:23
with indigenous, people in New Zealand

00:28:43:09 – 00:28:48:16
and, Irezumi is the tattoo in, Japan.

00:28:49:04 – 00:28:50:20
And to be able to

00:28:50:20 – 00:28:53:17
look at some of the origins of that,

00:28:53:17 – 00:28:57:15
because you do see how essential

00:28:57:15 – 00:29:00:21
that is in, in their community,

00:29:01:02 – 00:29:04:15
you know, women who receive the,

00:29:04:15 – 00:29:07:13
the chin tattoos in New Zealand.

00:29:07:13 – 00:29:10:19
A few years ago, there was a,

00:29:11:07 – 00:29:14:20
newscaster there who, proudly

00:29:14:20 – 00:29:19:01
wears hers and, and it was, on the news.

00:29:19:01 – 00:29:23:16
And it was such a amazing step for,

00:29:24:20 – 00:29:27:20
allowing that to be normalized.

00:29:28:17 – 00:29:30:09
And I,

00:29:30:09 – 00:29:34:07
I love to see how all of that comes back

00:29:35:01 – 00:29:36:15
around when people come in

00:29:36:15 – 00:29:37:14
and want something

00:29:37:14 – 00:29:39:20
connected to their cultural

00:29:39:20 – 00:29:40:21
and their heritage.

00:29:40:21 – 00:29:43:21
It’s because those are the the roots.

00:29:43:21 – 00:29:44:10
You know,

00:29:44:10 – 00:29:46:05
tattooing is so rich in

00:29:46:05 – 00:29:48:20
in this historical

00:29:48:20 – 00:29:51:02
form of storytelling and,

00:29:51:02 – 00:29:54:04
and that’s your way to also carry that.

00:29:55:09 – 00:29:58:21
I am so happy that, Disney has,

00:29:59:06 – 00:30:00:18
Moana

00:30:00:18 – 00:30:03:18
we were able to see a tattooed character.

00:30:03:19 – 00:30:06:16
I, I would love to see them

00:30:06:16 – 00:30:09:12
continue this,

00:30:09:12 – 00:30:13:15
maybe to even work with, tattoo

00:30:13:15 – 00:30:14:18
artists, indigenous

00:30:14:18 – 00:30:17:21
tattoo artists to be able to incorporate

00:30:18:23 – 00:30:21:15
true forms of,

00:30:21:15 – 00:30:23:23
into other character development.

00:30:23:23 – 00:30:26:21
That would be so exciting to see.

00:30:26:21 – 00:30:29:01
And, and wouldn’t

00:30:29:01 – 00:30:31:05
it be great to see more tattoo

00:30:31:05 – 00:30:33:23
characters, you know, just in general,

00:30:33:23 – 00:30:36:01
because as we’ve talked about

00:30:36:01 – 00:30:36:22
this is

00:30:36:22 – 00:30:39:18
a very normal part of our culture.

00:30:39:18 – 00:30:42:21
Now, a lot of people wear tattoos.

00:30:42:21 – 00:30:43:21
And I

00:30:43:21 – 00:30:45:19
think, if I’m not mistaken,

00:30:45:19 – 00:30:48:00
we only have one

00:30:48:00 – 00:30:50:20
Disney character with tattoos right now.

00:30:50:20 – 00:30:51:23
We have Maui.

00:30:51:23 – 00:30:52:19
Maui.

00:30:52:19 – 00:30:55:05
Moana doesn’t get it.

00:30:55:05 – 00:30:57:15
Looks like Moana gets hers right.

00:30:57:15 – 00:30:58:16
In the next movie,

00:30:58:16 – 00:31:01:16
we saw a trailer and then Pocahontas.

00:31:02:03 – 00:31:03:10
Oh you’re right.

00:31:03:10 – 00:31:06:16
Oh of course, yeah, but unfortunately,

00:31:07:01 – 00:31:07:22
you know, Pocahontas

00:31:07:22 – 00:31:09:13
is based off of a real person,

00:31:09:13 – 00:31:10:12
and her tattoos

00:31:10:12 – 00:31:11:20
are actually very intricate.

00:31:11:20 – 00:31:12:18
According to, like,

00:31:12:18 – 00:31:14:02
what some of the imagery was.

00:31:14:02 – 00:31:15:05
So what they have,

00:31:15:05 – 00:31:16:10
I think that they show her

00:31:16:10 – 00:31:17:19
having is very,

00:31:17:19 – 00:31:21:03
very basic as the youths say right.

00:31:21:11 – 00:31:22:23
I was the band and then.

00:31:22:23 – 00:31:23:13
Yeah,

00:31:23:13 – 00:31:24:00
if you

00:31:24:00 – 00:31:25:00
if you want to

00:31:25:00 – 00:31:28:02
maybe argue it does you know

00:31:28:02 – 00:31:31:02
Andy writing his name on his toys

00:31:31:02 – 00:31:32:03
is that tattooing

00:31:34:17 – 00:31:35:18
I would

00:31:35:18 – 00:31:36:15
I like to

00:31:36:15 – 00:31:37:22
think it’s

00:31:37:22 – 00:31:40:12
well it’s a form of of marking.

00:31:40:12 – 00:31:41:00
Right.

00:31:41:00 – 00:31:44:19
Which a tattoo is an obviously becomes

00:31:44:19 – 00:31:48:03
so essential to the story when,

00:31:48:14 – 00:31:52:14
when he’s questioning his value

00:31:52:14 – 00:31:53:15
to Andy

00:31:53:15 – 00:31:55:09
when Woody is questioning his value.

00:31:55:09 – 00:31:59:01
And that kind of connects that to

00:31:59:05 – 00:32:02:04
because, sometimes getting tattoo

00:32:02:04 – 00:32:05:15
can help us to establish or identity.

00:32:06:08 – 00:32:08:15
So I would love to think

00:32:08:15 – 00:32:10:02
that they’re going for that.

00:32:10:02 – 00:32:12:10
But what do you guys think?

00:32:12:10 – 00:32:13:00
I mean,

00:32:13:00 – 00:32:16:02
we it’s still a form of marking though.

00:32:16:02 – 00:32:18:13
And,

00:32:18:13 – 00:32:20:15
and, you know, just

00:32:20:15 – 00:32:23:15
the importance of him

00:32:24:05 – 00:32:27:00
or the two characters to each other,

00:32:27:00 – 00:32:28:09
you know, yeah,

00:32:28:09 – 00:32:30:09
it’s funny that you mentioned Andy

00:32:30:09 – 00:32:32:08
questioning his, like,

00:32:32:08 – 00:32:33:21
I guess, allegiance to whoever

00:32:33:21 – 00:32:35:14
it was his owner at the time,

00:32:35:14 – 00:32:37:20
because I was thinking, you know, if he,

00:32:37:20 – 00:32:39:10
you know, had any contemplation

00:32:39:10 – 00:32:41:01
on taking that away,

00:32:41:01 – 00:32:42:15
it was like as if he was breaking up

00:32:42:15 – 00:32:44:03
with Andy.

00:32:44:03 – 00:32:44:15
Like, you know,

00:32:44:15 – 00:32:46:02
when somebody gets a tattoo of,

00:32:46:02 – 00:32:46:20
like, a form or,

00:32:46:20 – 00:32:48:19
you know, like, significant other

00:32:48:19 – 00:32:49:20
and they don’t want to remember

00:32:49:20 – 00:32:50:19
that anymore.

00:32:50:19 – 00:32:51:03
I was like,

00:32:51:03 – 00:32:53:00
is he technically lasering this away?

00:32:53:00 – 00:32:54:00
Like, yeah,

00:32:54:00 – 00:32:54:08
you know,

00:32:54:08 – 00:32:54:20
because he doesn’t

00:32:54:20 – 00:32:55:17
want anything to do with

00:32:55:17 – 00:32:56:22
but you,

00:32:56:22 – 00:32:59:19
you know, only go during that parallel.

00:32:59:19 – 00:33:01:08
Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:01:08 – 00:33:01:17
Yeah.

00:33:01:17 – 00:33:04:05
I would love to see more of that.

00:33:04:05 – 00:33:05:21
I know, I know, yeah.

00:33:05:21 – 00:33:06:05
Go ahead.

00:33:06:05 – 00:33:06:13
Well,

00:33:06:13 – 00:33:07:04
when I think of

00:33:07:04 – 00:33:08:19
representation of tattoos,

00:33:08:19 – 00:33:10:02
aside from those characters,

00:33:10:02 – 00:33:12:03
we have like what Jack Sparrow

00:33:12:03 – 00:33:13:16
and anybody who is a pirate.

00:33:13:16 – 00:33:15:18
Yeah. True.

00:33:15:18 – 00:33:17:11
And that which,

00:33:17:11 – 00:33:19:07
which kind of hearkens back

00:33:19:07 – 00:33:22:04
more to the stigmatized way

00:33:22:04 – 00:33:23:16
of seeing that. Right.

00:33:23:16 – 00:33:27:12
Because but wouldn’t

00:33:27:12 – 00:33:31:01
it be an amazing opportunity to teach

00:33:31:09 – 00:33:34:02
about cultural heritage

00:33:34:02 – 00:33:35:11
and the connection

00:33:35:11 – 00:33:36:21
of, of those characters

00:33:36:21 – 00:33:39:10
and to do their part

00:33:39:10 – 00:33:42:05
with normalizing tattoos?

00:33:42:05 – 00:33:44:21
Because I mean it

00:33:44:21 – 00:33:46:12
I understand needing

00:33:46:12 – 00:33:48:04
to keep the balance for children.

00:33:48:04 – 00:33:50:15
However, children are exposed

00:33:50:15 – 00:33:52:23
to tattoo people all the time. Yes.

00:33:52:23 – 00:33:55:16
And I, you know, growing.

00:33:55:16 – 00:33:57:05
When my kids grew up,

00:33:57:05 – 00:33:59:13
we obviously were tattooed

00:33:59:13 – 00:34:01:07
and we tried to incorporate

00:34:01:07 – 00:34:03:10
lots of different art into the house.

00:34:03:10 – 00:34:05:14
And I really find that

00:34:05:14 – 00:34:07:12
when when you normalize

00:34:07:12 – 00:34:09:14
something, they’re not scared of it

00:34:09:14 – 00:34:11:21
and they don’t think it’s taboo

00:34:11:21 – 00:34:12:14
and, and like,

00:34:12:14 – 00:34:15:18
they don’t want to rebel back to it

00:34:15:18 – 00:34:19:18
as much as when you, repress it

00:34:19:18 – 00:34:21:19
and teach them that it’s scary.

00:34:22:18 – 00:34:24:13
So I would just love to

00:34:24:13 – 00:34:25:01
see them

00:34:25:01 – 00:34:25:22
just, you know,

00:34:25:22 – 00:34:27:16
not know that they think,

00:34:27:16 – 00:34:28:07
yeah,

00:34:28:07 – 00:34:29:09
we have to get

00:34:29:09 – 00:34:31:09
them head tattoos or facial,

00:34:31:09 – 00:34:32:16
but just easy. Cool.

00:34:32:16 – 00:34:34:12
They have a few new characters

00:34:34:12 – 00:34:38:00
that just sported something, you know.

00:34:38:04 – 00:34:38:21
So, you know,

00:34:38:21 – 00:34:40:11
I always thought that,

00:34:40:11 – 00:34:40:19
you know,

00:34:40:19 – 00:34:42:22
we didn’t get tattoos on characters

00:34:42:22 – 00:34:44:03
because I thought it was difficult

00:34:44:03 – 00:34:47:16
for the animators to like, portray

00:34:48:03 – 00:34:49:22
like a really good piece of art

00:34:49:22 – 00:34:52:12
because sometimes it can get so intricate

00:34:52:12 – 00:34:53:23
and you don’t want to,

00:34:53:23 – 00:34:55:15
you know, make that dull

00:34:55:15 – 00:34:56:20
and you don’t want it to be a bad

00:34:56:20 – 00:34:58:15
looking tattoo.

00:34:58:15 – 00:35:00:05
But I mean, when they did Maui,

00:35:00:05 – 00:35:03:02
I think the CGI and also

00:35:03:02 – 00:35:04:19
the animation has gone so far

00:35:04:19 – 00:35:06:08
that maybe there’s a little bit

00:35:06:08 – 00:35:07:18
easier for, you know, digital

00:35:07:18 – 00:35:09:05
animators to do that.

00:35:09:05 – 00:35:11:06
Because when I saw Maui’s

00:35:11:06 – 00:35:12:09
I was like, these are good.

00:35:12:09 – 00:35:14:15
Look, you know, they’re accurate, right?

00:35:14:15 – 00:35:15:10
Portrayed

00:35:15:10 – 00:35:16:17
and they don’t look weird

00:35:16:17 – 00:35:18:14
and they look great on the skin.

00:35:18:14 – 00:35:19:10
But, you know,

00:35:19:10 – 00:35:20:21
I can imagine if that was harder

00:35:20:21 – 00:35:23:09
for like a 2D animation to do that.

00:35:23:09 – 00:35:24:12
So, you know,

00:35:24:12 – 00:35:25:07
I don’t know if you guys

00:35:25:07 – 00:35:26:16
had a thought about that

00:35:26:16 – 00:35:28:19
because he does move

00:35:28:19 – 00:35:31:17
and they flow with the movements

00:35:31:17 – 00:35:32:15
really well.

00:35:32:15 – 00:35:35:05
That’s a that’s a great point.

00:35:35:05 – 00:35:36:08
Yeah.

00:35:36:08 – 00:35:39:08
But that they can do it I know they can.

00:35:39:11 – 00:35:40:10
Yeah, I could do it.

00:35:40:10 – 00:35:41:17
I have a feeling we can

00:35:41:17 – 00:35:42:19
if we believe in you,

00:35:42:19 – 00:35:45:18
get more tattooed individuals in Disney.

00:35:45:18 – 00:35:47:03
It’s going to come from Pixar.

00:35:48:07 – 00:35:50:11
Oh I get it’s for the money.

00:35:50:11 – 00:35:50:22
Right.

00:35:50:22 – 00:35:53:22
So yeah that’s for the money.

00:35:56:12 – 00:35:58:12
I going back to the cultural

00:35:58:12 – 00:35:59:06
element though,

00:35:59:06 – 00:36:00:13
I, I just,

00:36:00:13 – 00:36:03:03
I think that’s such a great opportunity

00:36:03:03 – 00:36:05:16
to really have those accurate,

00:36:05:16 – 00:36:08:19
you know, depictions of something

00:36:08:19 – 00:36:11:19
that can be so important.

00:36:12:03 – 00:36:13:02
And, and I know

00:36:13:02 – 00:36:15:05
we saw the one part of the song

00:36:15:05 – 00:36:17:12
where the one guy was getting his tattoo.

00:36:17:12 – 00:36:20:00
That’s how that’s that’s true.

00:36:20:00 – 00:36:22:19
So so kudos to that.

00:36:22:19 – 00:36:23:21
Yeah.

00:36:23:21 – 00:36:26:02
So I and I would like to think

00:36:26:02 – 00:36:28:04
that as we progress

00:36:28:04 – 00:36:30:18
that that will change to. Right.

00:36:30:18 – 00:36:33:01
Because things that,

00:36:33:01 – 00:36:35:16
that they incorporated years ago

00:36:35:16 – 00:36:37:02
have certainly changed

00:36:37:02 – 00:36:40:02
with women’s roles and

00:36:40:02 – 00:36:42:15
and just progress in general.

00:36:42:15 – 00:36:45:00
So fingers crossed.

00:36:45:00 – 00:36:45:06
Well,

00:36:45:06 – 00:36:46:05
and then speaking

00:36:46:05 – 00:36:47:17
in the cultural component Stef

00:36:47:17 – 00:36:48:23
I think when your husband

00:36:48:23 – 00:36:50:16
had to get one of his tattoos, didn’t

00:36:50:16 – 00:36:51:21
he have to like, answer

00:36:51:21 – 00:36:52:19
this questionnaire

00:36:52:19 – 00:36:54:23
for lineage, for certain imagery

00:36:54:23 – 00:36:56:17
and things that could be used

00:36:56:17 – 00:36:58:02
that were like that

00:36:58:02 – 00:36:59:08
historically represents

00:36:59:08 – 00:37:00:16
a certain tribe of people?

00:37:01:15 – 00:37:02:00
Yeah.

00:37:02:00 – 00:37:03:06
So there’s a place here

00:37:03:06 – 00:37:04:01
in Orange County,

00:37:04:01 – 00:37:05:13
actually, that specializes

00:37:05:13 – 00:37:07:07
in tribal Filipino tattoos.

00:37:07:07 – 00:37:08:09
Oh, okay.

00:37:08:09 – 00:37:10:04
So it was like a lengthy,

00:37:10:04 – 00:37:13:08
like, multi-month process where we had to

00:37:13:22 – 00:37:15:01
we had to like,

00:37:15:01 – 00:37:15:21
kind of dig deep

00:37:15:21 – 00:37:17:00
and see what his grandmother

00:37:17:00 – 00:37:17:23
did for living,

00:37:17:23 – 00:37:18:21
what his grandfather

00:37:18:21 – 00:37:21:05
did on both sides of his family, kind of,

00:37:21:05 – 00:37:22:18
you know, like what their,

00:37:22:18 – 00:37:25:02
what their role was in the family

00:37:25:02 – 00:37:25:09
and like,

00:37:25:09 – 00:37:27:05
what industry that they worked in.

00:37:27:05 – 00:37:29:21
And they work that into his entire sleeve

00:37:29:21 – 00:37:30:18
and his sleeve

00:37:30:18 – 00:37:33:15
basically tells the story of his family,

00:37:33:15 – 00:37:34:21
what he does for a living.

00:37:34:21 – 00:37:36:01
He’s in communication.

00:37:36:01 – 00:37:38:05
So he had, like little lightning bolts

00:37:38:05 – 00:37:39:06
that like, symbolize,

00:37:39:06 – 00:37:39:19
you know,

00:37:39:19 – 00:37:41:20
the transfer of like, information

00:37:41:20 – 00:37:42:15
and things like that.

00:37:42:15 – 00:37:44:20
So yeah, it was it was really great.

00:37:44:20 – 00:37:45:14
And it helped us

00:37:45:14 – 00:37:47:02
learn more about his lineage,

00:37:47:02 – 00:37:48:11
which we wouldn’t have known

00:37:48:11 – 00:37:50:19
if he didn’t decide to do that.

00:37:50:19 – 00:37:51:05
Wow.

00:37:51:05 – 00:37:52:09
So is this

00:37:52:09 – 00:37:55:07
are these things that the tattoo

00:37:55:07 – 00:37:55:20
you artist

00:37:55:20 – 00:38:00:02
or the shop did research on to wow.

00:38:00:08 – 00:38:01:03
That is it is.

00:38:02:07 – 00:38:03:10
And then the next part of it

00:38:03:10 – 00:38:05:06
is the actual work, the

00:38:05:06 – 00:38:07:20
oh my gosh, that’s amazing process.

00:38:07:20 – 00:38:10:15
What it’s like a genealogy project

00:38:10:15 – 00:38:12:06
that comes to life on skin.

00:38:12:06 – 00:38:15:15
And that’s really amazing and so special.

00:38:15:15 – 00:38:17:19
That just makes it so special.

00:38:17:19 – 00:38:18:15
You know,

00:38:18:15 – 00:38:19:08
any time

00:38:19:08 – 00:38:20:09
you have an artist

00:38:20:09 – 00:38:24:04
that goes to those lengths and really cares

00:38:24:04 – 00:38:26:12
about the final product,

00:38:26:12 – 00:38:28:12
that’s that’s magic.

00:38:28:12 – 00:38:31:14
You know, that’s that’s so amazing.

00:38:32:02 – 00:38:34:13
And he must be so proud to wear it

00:38:34:13 – 00:38:36:08
and to tell the story. Right.

00:38:36:08 – 00:38:38:09
Because the story

00:38:38:09 – 00:38:39:19
he has to like kind of figure out

00:38:39:19 – 00:38:41:00
how he’s going to say it

00:38:41:00 – 00:38:42:21
because there’s so much to talk about.

00:38:42:21 – 00:38:44:05
But sometimes somebody asks him,

00:38:44:05 – 00:38:45:21
like in line at Disneyland.

00:38:45:21 – 00:38:47:18
So he has like two seconds to like

00:38:47:18 – 00:38:48:08
this background.

00:38:49:11 – 00:38:51:03
My mom said, okay, bye.

00:38:51:03 – 00:38:51:15
See you later.

00:38:51:15 – 00:38:52:03
Thank you.

00:38:52:03 – 00:38:53:17
Oh, that’s so cute.

00:38:53:17 – 00:38:55:11
Or hours in line.

00:38:55:11 – 00:38:57:03
I mean, you get maybe.

00:38:57:03 – 00:38:58:13
No, I’m just kidding. What?

00:38:58:13 – 00:38:59:16
When you don’t have Genie+

00:38:59:16 – 00:39:02:02
When we don’t have lightning lane, Right.

00:39:02:02 – 00:39:02:21
Nope.

00:39:02:21 – 00:39:06:20
So we have been in Oregon since 2015,

00:39:07:07 – 00:39:09:09
but we used to be annual passholders,

00:39:09:09 – 00:39:12:09
so we lived in, we I was telling Ariel that,

00:39:12:12 – 00:39:15:05
I lived in Riverside most of my life

00:39:15:05 – 00:39:16:05
growing up.

00:39:16:05 – 00:39:17:16
So I used to go all the time.

00:39:17:16 – 00:39:18:05
I mean, I know

00:39:18:05 – 00:39:21:05
things have changed so much, so I don’t

00:39:21:05 – 00:39:22:17
I don’t fully understand

00:39:22:17 – 00:39:25:22
all of the new rules, with lines and all.

00:39:25:22 – 00:39:27:05
There’s a lot to know.

00:39:27:05 – 00:39:28:11
And you know what?

00:39:28:11 – 00:39:29:21
We’ll save that for another podcast.

00:39:29:21 – 00:39:31:09
Okay, there we go.

00:39:33:06 – 00:39:33:16
That’s

00:39:33:16 – 00:39:34:11
really, really

00:39:34:11 – 00:39:35:16
cool about your husband’s

00:39:35:16 – 00:39:36:18
tattoo, though,

00:39:36:18 – 00:39:39:13
I, I think it’s amazing

00:39:39:13 – 00:39:42:07
that there is a shop that can

00:39:42:07 – 00:39:43:14
isn’t that cool, that

00:39:43:14 – 00:39:47:10
there can be a shop that is so focused on

00:39:48:05 – 00:39:52:06
such a particular community, so amazing.

00:39:52:06 – 00:39:53:03
It’s really.

00:39:53:03 – 00:39:53:12
Yeah.

00:39:53:12 – 00:39:55:13
And knowing that there, you know,

00:39:55:13 – 00:39:57:23
we do have like a cultural history

00:39:57:23 – 00:39:59:08
of that being, you know,

00:39:59:08 – 00:40:00:09
you know, attached to us.

00:40:00:09 – 00:40:02:09
I think it’s great that there’s people

00:40:02:09 – 00:40:04:04
who do their research and continue

00:40:04:04 – 00:40:05:20
on that tradition for,

00:40:05:20 – 00:40:06:14
you know, those,

00:40:06:14 – 00:40:08:06
you know, us in the diaspora

00:40:08:06 – 00:40:11:05
that don’t have access to it because,

00:40:11:05 – 00:40:11:13
all right,

00:40:11:13 – 00:40:12:23
you know, our country so far away.

00:40:12:23 – 00:40:14:15
So it was really, really great.

00:40:14:15 – 00:40:16:01
So cool.

00:40:16:01 – 00:40:19:01
And yeah, I love that.

00:40:19:02 – 00:40:21:08
And you know, that really sets artists

00:40:21:08 – 00:40:21:23
apart too,

00:40:21:23 – 00:40:23:19
because there are a lot of

00:40:23:19 – 00:40:25:14
tattoo artists in the world nowadays.

00:40:25:14 – 00:40:26:04
And when you

00:40:26:04 – 00:40:27:09
when you have something

00:40:27:09 – 00:40:31:04
so niche like that but and special it’s

00:40:31:12 – 00:40:33:08
it’s brilliant honestly.

00:40:33:08 – 00:40:35:03
So super cool.

00:40:35:03 – 00:40:36:01
Yeah.

00:40:36:01 – 00:40:36:15
I’m, I’m

00:40:36:15 – 00:40:39:00
curious do with the tattoo artists

00:40:39:00 – 00:40:39:21
that you’ve worked with

00:40:39:21 – 00:40:42:23
or talked to when you have already iconic

00:40:42:23 – 00:40:45:23
imagery like Disney imagery does that

00:40:46:22 – 00:40:47:09
bring more

00:40:47:09 – 00:40:50:19
challenge to how they create the art,

00:40:50:19 – 00:40:51:19
or does it

00:40:51:19 – 00:40:52:18
like having that

00:40:52:18 – 00:40:54:12
that already iconic imagery

00:40:54:12 – 00:40:55:12
make it easier?

00:40:55:12 – 00:40:57:03
Like what is that like for them

00:40:57:03 – 00:40:59:19
creative wise?

00:40:59:19 – 00:41:02:01
I, I think it’s it’s

00:41:02:01 – 00:41:04:15
probably changed a lot over the years.

00:41:04:15 – 00:41:06:03
I it’s funny,

00:41:06:03 – 00:41:06:20
I remember

00:41:06:20 – 00:41:10:06
when, I first started getting tattooed

00:41:10:20 – 00:41:13:10
it was still a little risky

00:41:13:10 – 00:41:16:15
to actually get an accurate,

00:41:16:16 – 00:41:18:15
replica

00:41:18:15 – 00:41:20:23
of a tattoo of a Disney character.

00:41:20:23 – 00:41:22:22
I, I know this is wild,

00:41:22:22 – 00:41:25:00
but there were stories back

00:41:25:00 – 00:41:27:13
then where they would, sue people,

00:41:27:13 – 00:41:29:14
you know, for having

00:41:29:14 – 00:41:32:15
or having Disney images on that

00:41:32:15 – 00:41:35:15
that weren’t changed.

00:41:35:17 – 00:41:36:22
Which is

00:41:36:22 – 00:41:38:13
I mean, this is a long time ago, but,

00:41:38:13 – 00:41:39:08
yeah, obviously

00:41:39:08 – 00:41:42:08
things have changed drastically.

00:41:42:08 – 00:41:44:19
So I think in those times,

00:41:44:19 – 00:41:48:10
artists had to make some alterations

00:41:48:10 – 00:41:48:18
to it.

00:41:48:18 – 00:41:50:06
So, you know,

00:41:50:06 – 00:41:52:04
I mean, you can still hide it,

00:41:52:04 – 00:41:56:03
I’m sure, but but just to be in alignment

00:41:56:06 – 00:41:57:16
with their

00:41:57:16 – 00:42:00:00
what they were requiring at the time.

00:42:00:00 – 00:42:03:01
But, I think now

00:42:03:13 – 00:42:07:12
it’s probably such a benefit to have

00:42:08:03 – 00:42:10:22
that,

00:42:10:22 – 00:42:12:20
you know, that core imagery

00:42:12:20 – 00:42:15:21
because it, it it’s, you know, it’s so

00:42:15:21 – 00:42:19:07
well done and so, memorable,

00:42:19:17 – 00:42:21:00
and then adding

00:42:21:00 – 00:42:22:18
those little touches to it

00:42:22:18 – 00:42:26:05
and your style, because everybody’s

00:42:26:05 – 00:42:29:23
got a little flair that makes their stuff

00:42:30:18 – 00:42:34:15
pop, you know, and whether it’s like,

00:42:34:15 – 00:42:36:11
watercolor version

00:42:36:11 – 00:42:39:09
or maybe just black and gray,

00:42:39:09 – 00:42:40:23
you know, taking a taking

00:42:40:23 – 00:42:42:13
a very colorful character,

00:42:42:13 – 00:42:43:20
but just doing know, cool

00:42:43:20 – 00:42:47:02
black and gray imagery or adding

00:42:47:07 – 00:42:48:16
something behind it

00:42:48:16 – 00:42:50:18
that means something to the person.

00:42:52:03 – 00:42:53:22
I’m sure it.

00:42:53:22 – 00:42:54:08
Mr..

00:42:54:08 – 00:42:54:20
It’s probably

00:42:54:20 – 00:42:57:21
a different answer for tattoo artist.

00:42:57:21 – 00:43:00:21
Right. There’s just

00:43:01:09 – 00:43:03:09
sometimes just taking an image

00:43:03:09 – 00:43:07:02
and making a stencil of it and pop,

00:43:07:08 – 00:43:08:09
you know, you’re done.

00:43:08:09 – 00:43:11:05
That’s that’s super easy.

00:43:11:05 – 00:43:12:12
And and so

00:43:12:12 – 00:43:14:16
but putting all that extra into

00:43:14:16 – 00:43:17:16
it is makes it special and.

00:43:18:01 – 00:43:18:15
Yeah.

00:43:18:15 – 00:43:20:12
Yeah, that’s a good question though

00:43:20:12 – 00:43:22:20
I know I want to ask all these artists

00:43:22:20 – 00:43:25:15
what they think. Yeah.

00:43:25:15 – 00:43:28:00
Well and I know you had a presentation

00:43:28:00 – 00:43:31:07
at tag’s 2022 where you highlighted

00:43:31:07 – 00:43:32:13
a lot of the benefits,

00:43:32:13 – 00:43:34:07
the therapeutic benefits of tattooing.

00:43:34:07 – 00:43:36:21
And we have discussed some things,

00:43:36:21 – 00:43:38:12
but I’m curious for you,

00:43:38:12 – 00:43:40:02
for newer clinicians,

00:43:40:02 – 00:43:41:18
how can they bring up the subject

00:43:41:18 – 00:43:42:22
of someone’s tattoos?

00:43:42:22 – 00:43:43:17
You just straight up

00:43:43:17 – 00:43:44:16
ask them, like, what?

00:43:44:16 – 00:43:46:23
What have you noticed about the waves

00:43:46:23 – 00:43:48:21
and what have you noticed?

00:43:48:21 – 00:43:50:23
Has been therapeutic conversations

00:43:50:23 – 00:43:52:07
about it.

00:43:52:07 – 00:43:52:22
Well,

00:43:52:22 – 00:43:56:09
I first, as I mentioned earlier, I,

00:43:56:17 – 00:44:00:20
I always embrace that when I see people

00:44:01:05 – 00:44:02:01
who are tattoo

00:44:02:01 – 00:44:03:13
because I know

00:44:03:13 – 00:44:04:17
from my own experience

00:44:04:17 – 00:44:07:01
that you have so many stories

00:44:07:01 – 00:44:08:06
to tell through it.

00:44:08:06 – 00:44:09:23
So if somebody know

00:44:09:23 – 00:44:11:07
this is and

00:44:11:07 – 00:44:14:00
and wants to talk about it, it’s,

00:44:14:00 – 00:44:14:19
you know, it’s

00:44:14:19 – 00:44:17:03
it’s usually this open door

00:44:17:03 – 00:44:18:14
that lets you.

00:44:18:14 – 00:44:21:05
Yeah, open up all kinds of things.

00:44:21:05 – 00:44:24:14
I think the main thing that I have found

00:44:24:14 – 00:44:25:05
has been so

00:44:25:05 – 00:44:28:05
valuable is through narrative therapy,

00:44:28:06 – 00:44:32:09
because tattoos are your storybook,

00:44:32:14 – 00:44:32:23
you know,

00:44:32:23 – 00:44:35:19
they are your way of telling your journey

00:44:35:19 – 00:44:37:03
and your story.

00:44:37:03 – 00:44:38:01
And a lot of times

00:44:38:01 – 00:44:40:09
when people are, do it

00:44:40:09 – 00:44:42:04
when we’re doing trauma work,

00:44:42:04 – 00:44:45:17
the whole goal is to rewrite that story

00:44:45:17 – 00:44:48:22
in a powerful, new, positive way.

00:44:49:12 – 00:44:52:18
And tattoos can be that stepping stone

00:44:52:20 – 00:44:53:14
for that.

00:44:55:07 – 00:44:57:16
It’s, I

00:44:57:16 – 00:45:00:18
had a client a while ago who was in a

00:45:01:07 – 00:45:03:19
really, bad car accident

00:45:03:19 – 00:45:06:14
and had a few tattoos, but,

00:45:06:14 – 00:45:10:09
through the work, she decided

00:45:10:09 – 00:45:13:09
to get a Phoenix tattoo,

00:45:13:11 – 00:45:16:11
because it represents rebirth.

00:45:16:16 – 00:45:18:15
And it was strength.

00:45:18:15 – 00:45:20:02
And,

00:45:20:02 – 00:45:23:01
it was such the incredible experience

00:45:23:01 – 00:45:23:12
for her

00:45:23:12 – 00:45:27:00
to even just making the appointment

00:45:27:00 – 00:45:28:21
because this was,

00:45:28:21 – 00:45:29:12
this started

00:45:29:12 – 00:45:30:18
this whole new story

00:45:30:18 – 00:45:31:05
that now

00:45:31:05 – 00:45:34:08
she gets to tell as she’s healing

00:45:34:08 – 00:45:35:16
both physically

00:45:35:16 – 00:45:37:20
and mentally and emotionally.

00:45:37:20 – 00:45:41:10
And each, tattoo session

00:45:41:21 – 00:45:45:08
just brought so much for her as she was

00:45:45:08 – 00:45:46:15
coming out of something

00:45:46:15 – 00:45:49:15
very traumatic into this beautiful

00:45:50:09 – 00:45:51:01
phoenix,

00:45:51:01 – 00:45:54:08
you know, that actually represents that,

00:45:55:01 – 00:45:58:11
another way of seeing it work

00:45:58:21 – 00:46:02:09
very powerfully is, and just

00:46:02:20 – 00:46:03:20
trigger warning

00:46:03:20 – 00:46:06:03
in case anybody, struggles

00:46:06:03 – 00:46:07:01
with self-harm,

00:46:07:01 – 00:46:11:17
but, through self-harm scars,

00:46:11:20 – 00:46:12:21
this

00:46:12:21 – 00:46:15:04
this has become a really beautiful thing

00:46:15:04 – 00:46:16:16
that a lot of tattoo artists do

00:46:16:16 – 00:46:21:00
now to tattoo over and kind of with

00:46:21:05 – 00:46:22:15
the, the scars.

00:46:23:21 – 00:46:24:21
It’s so

00:46:24:21 – 00:46:25:18
powerful and

00:46:25:18 – 00:46:26:10
healing

00:46:26:10 – 00:46:29:10
to be able to take something so painful

00:46:29:16 – 00:46:33:16
that you are want to grow and

00:46:33:16 – 00:46:35:14
and change from

00:46:35:14 – 00:46:38:12
and cover it up with something beautiful

00:46:38:12 – 00:46:40:12
and where you used to look down

00:46:40:12 – 00:46:42:15
and see something,

00:46:42:15 – 00:46:44:15
you know, very hard

00:46:44:15 – 00:46:46:04
And, now

00:46:46:04 – 00:46:46:18
you have

00:46:46:18 – 00:46:49:09
this whole new way of seeing that.

00:46:49:09 – 00:46:51:21
So that’s

00:46:51:21 – 00:46:54:01
that is a really incredible,

00:46:54:01 – 00:46:57:10
direction that a lot of artists do now.

00:46:58:07 – 00:47:00:23
Also, mastectomy

00:47:00:23 – 00:47:04:19
tattoo is can be incredible

00:47:04:20 – 00:47:07:03
new journey into again

00:47:07:03 – 00:47:08:21
something that we have been difficult

00:47:08:21 – 00:47:10:13
to get through you

00:47:10:13 – 00:47:11:14
Oh my gosh,

00:47:11:14 – 00:47:13:06
some of the mastectomy

00:47:13:06 – 00:47:14:22
artists are so incredible.

00:47:14:22 – 00:47:17:08
Not only with 3D nipple tattoos,

00:47:17:08 – 00:47:20:09
but also, just adorning it

00:47:20:09 – 00:47:23:11
with flowers or octopus

00:47:23:11 – 00:47:24:15
or whatever,

00:47:24:15 – 00:47:25:19
whatever it is

00:47:25:19 – 00:47:27:05
that you guys came up with,

00:47:27:05 – 00:47:30:04
and now you’ve transformed something

00:47:30:04 – 00:47:33:16
into this very proud part of you.

00:47:34:06 – 00:47:35:09
Yeah.

00:47:35:09 – 00:47:38:12
Same same for, the top surgery.

00:47:39:00 – 00:47:40:09
People

00:47:40:09 – 00:47:41:18
that go through top surgery

00:47:41:18 – 00:47:45:07
that want to have a 3D nipple tattooed,

00:47:45:14 – 00:47:48:04
I, I’m sure you guys have seen the work.

00:47:48:04 – 00:47:50:19
It’s absolutely mind blowing.

00:47:50:19 – 00:47:53:16
It looks so, so real.

00:47:53:16 – 00:47:55:03
And. And how,

00:47:57:05 – 00:47:59:01
how wonderful.

00:47:59:01 – 00:47:59:10
Right.

00:47:59:10 – 00:48:00:03
For somebody

00:48:00:03 – 00:48:03:06
to be able to have the opportunity

00:48:03:06 – 00:48:07:02
to feel whole and and as themself.

00:48:07:12 – 00:48:09:16
So I know, something else

00:48:09:16 – 00:48:12:02
I’ve seen with tattoos in my practice,

00:48:12:02 – 00:48:13:22
as the audience might remember,

00:48:13:22 – 00:48:14:19
I specialize

00:48:14:19 – 00:48:15:18
with survivors

00:48:15:18 – 00:48:18:18
of child sexual abuse or sexual abuse

00:48:18:22 – 00:48:21:05
And so

00:48:21:05 – 00:48:22:15
getting any tattoo

00:48:22:15 – 00:48:25:04
feels like a reclaim of the body.

00:48:25:04 – 00:48:27:16
That right is like,

00:48:27:16 – 00:48:29:16
I can mark a moment of,

00:48:29:16 – 00:48:31:21
this moving forward is me,

00:48:31:21 – 00:48:33:23
like in my post-traumatic growth or,

00:48:33:23 – 00:48:35:05
exactly

00:48:35:05 – 00:48:38:03
like owning all parts of myself again.

00:48:38:03 – 00:48:38:10
Yeah.

00:48:38:10 – 00:48:41:18
And it could be as as simple as,

00:48:41:18 – 00:48:43:02
you know, some dots on the hand

00:48:43:02 – 00:48:44:19
or a little flower or on the hand right.

00:48:44:19 – 00:48:46:13
It can be very immaculate

00:48:46:13 – 00:48:49:22
It, and I know that,

00:48:50:14 – 00:48:52:02
that was the only way

00:48:52:02 – 00:48:53:19
that healing moving forward

00:48:53:19 – 00:48:55:09
was going to happen was

00:48:55:09 – 00:48:56:19
if my client could feel like

00:48:56:19 – 00:48:59:00
they owned their body again.

00:48:59:00 – 00:49:00:08
Right?

00:49:00:08 – 00:49:01:02
Yes.

00:49:01:02 – 00:49:03:20
It’s it’s so powerful.

00:49:03:20 – 00:49:05:10
It really is. It’s like

00:49:06:13 – 00:49:09:18
deciding to make that step

00:49:10:05 – 00:49:13:07
and using your own body as that,

00:49:13:20 – 00:49:17:16
that catalyst to be able to reclaim that.

00:49:17:16 – 00:49:19:12
Oh my gosh, it’s huge.

00:49:19:12 – 00:49:22:05
And I also always love

00:49:22:05 – 00:49:23:01
that you get to

00:49:23:01 – 00:49:25:07
where you get to hold it with you always.

00:49:25:07 – 00:49:26:06
You know,

00:49:26:06 – 00:49:29:07
because it’s not even like a moment

00:49:29:07 – 00:49:30:06
or a day

00:49:30:06 – 00:49:32:14
where you’re having this ceremony

00:49:32:14 – 00:49:33:21
or special thing.

00:49:33:21 – 00:49:36:21
It’s like something that you get to turn to

00:49:37:03 – 00:49:39:11
when you need to do to reminds you

00:49:39:11 – 00:49:40:16
that you did that.

00:49:40:16 – 00:49:42:09
You took back that power.

00:49:42:09 – 00:49:46:21
So I, I see it so often and I, I just

00:49:46:21 – 00:49:47:16
I love that

00:49:47:16 – 00:49:50:03
that’s something that is available

00:49:50:03 – 00:49:53:03
in in trauma work

00:49:53:03 – 00:49:55:21
and rewriting your story

00:49:55:21 – 00:49:57:08
with narrative therapy.

00:49:57:08 – 00:49:59:14
So yeah. Thank you.

00:49:59:14 – 00:50:00:02
You guys did

00:50:00:02 – 00:50:03:04
ask the question about, educational,

00:50:03:09 – 00:50:04:14
tools

00:50:04:14 – 00:50:07:00
that that teachers might be able to.

00:50:07:00 – 00:50:10:00
And I know we, we talked a lot about how

00:50:10:00 – 00:50:13:03
that is kind of a part of school now,

00:50:13:03 – 00:50:14:21
which makes me so happy.

00:50:14:21 – 00:50:16:21
But I did make a couple little notes

00:50:16:21 – 00:50:20:17
about, I thought, integrating tattoos

00:50:20:17 – 00:50:23:22
into curriculum in the cultural sense,

00:50:24:07 – 00:50:25:23
you know, is amazing

00:50:25:23 – 00:50:29:18
way to teach historical and

00:50:29:18 – 00:50:31:11
cultural significance

00:50:31:11 – 00:50:36:01
Introducing some of, like the

00:50:36:04 – 00:50:39:04
the Māori Tā moko or

00:50:39:06 – 00:50:42:00
Japanese Irezumi things

00:50:42:00 – 00:50:44:17
maybe having a guest speaker,

00:50:44:17 – 00:50:47:17
a, teacher could do either

00:50:47:17 – 00:50:48:21
a tattoo artist

00:50:48:21 – 00:50:51:06
or somebody who was very,

00:50:51:06 – 00:50:53:13
knowledgeable about tattoo history.

00:50:53:13 – 00:50:55:18
I think kids would love that.

00:50:55:18 – 00:50:57:11
And and maybe things

00:50:57:11 – 00:50:59:14
that they might be scared about asking.

00:50:59:14 – 00:51:02:04
They could feel comfortable with.

00:51:02:04 – 00:51:03:21
Yeah.

00:51:03:21 – 00:51:06:11
Obviously art in art class.

00:51:06:11 – 00:51:08:10
Just asking kids

00:51:08:10 – 00:51:09:14
to design their own

00:51:09:14 – 00:51:11:07
tattoo and, like, what?

00:51:11:07 – 00:51:14:03
Personal meaning that you have to them.

00:51:14:03 – 00:51:18:06
And just being able to explore symbolism

00:51:18:06 – 00:51:20:06
and the design elements

00:51:20:06 – 00:51:21:16
and all the cool things

00:51:21:16 – 00:51:23:22
you could do with art, of course.

00:51:23:22 – 00:51:26:16
And then had, Oh, I also see,

00:51:26:16 – 00:51:28:11
with literature,

00:51:28:11 – 00:51:29:20
creative writing

00:51:29:20 – 00:51:32:12
lady using tattoos as a motif

00:51:32:12 – 00:51:36:10
or a symbol for a creative writing.

00:51:36:10 – 00:51:40:07
Exercise to, like, analyze

00:51:40:15 – 00:51:43:13
characters or themes or plots or,

00:51:43:13 – 00:51:44:21
you know, just,

00:51:44:21 – 00:51:45:18
I guess

00:51:45:18 – 00:51:47:12
another big part of that to me

00:51:47:12 – 00:51:49:06
is normalizing it.

00:51:49:06 – 00:51:52:17
So it’s not something that feels so

00:51:53:09 – 00:51:54:06
taboo.

00:51:54:06 – 00:51:55:11
You know, I just

00:51:55:11 – 00:51:56:10
I really like that

00:51:56:10 – 00:51:58:03
because I did see online

00:51:58:03 – 00:52:00:06
somebody do a book writing assignment

00:52:00:06 – 00:52:00:19
where instead of

00:52:00:19 – 00:52:02:22
just writing like a book report,

00:52:02:22 – 00:52:05:05
they had to pick, like is

00:52:05:05 – 00:52:07:12
are they called jibbitz on the Crocs

00:52:07:12 – 00:52:10:02
widget? Yes. Yeah.

00:52:10:02 – 00:52:13:00
They had to make a Croc for the character

00:52:13:00 – 00:52:15:00
and put jibbitz on there.

00:52:15:00 – 00:52:17:19
So it’s like the character in your book.

00:52:17:19 – 00:52:19:15
Like what tattoos would they have?

00:52:19:15 – 00:52:20:04
Like,

00:52:20:04 – 00:52:22:02
would Ponyboy from The Outsiders

00:52:22:02 – 00:52:23:17
be wearing?

00:52:23:17 – 00:52:24:13
Exactly.

00:52:24:13 – 00:52:26:19
Like, there’s endless things, right,

00:52:26:19 – 00:52:28:10
that you could do.

00:52:28:10 – 00:52:30:10
I think that’s so cool.

00:52:30:10 – 00:52:30:20
That’s

00:52:30:20 – 00:52:34:14
that’s a great little, little assignment

00:52:34:20 – 00:52:36:01
that teacher do that would

00:52:37:13 – 00:52:40:01
Do you have any like, advice for anybody

00:52:40:01 – 00:52:41:01
who’s an aspiring

00:52:41:01 – 00:52:43:04
tattoo artist that you know,

00:52:43:04 – 00:52:44:09
wants to hone in on something

00:52:44:09 – 00:52:46:12
because there’s so many out there, but,

00:52:46:12 – 00:52:47:00
you know,

00:52:47:00 – 00:52:48:10
is there any advice that you would give

00:52:48:10 – 00:52:49:00
for somebody

00:52:49:00 – 00:52:52:00
to just believe in what they can do?

00:52:52:16 – 00:52:53:01
Yeah.

00:52:53:01 – 00:52:53:19
Well,

00:52:53:19 – 00:52:56:14
the best thing any aspiring tattoo

00:52:56:14 – 00:52:58:15
artist can do is to draw.

00:52:58:15 – 00:53:00:23
Draw a draw

00:53:00:23 – 00:53:03:11
Just like live.

00:53:03:11 – 00:53:05:07
Breathe. Practicing.

00:53:05:07 – 00:53:06:00
You know,

00:53:06:00 – 00:53:08:17
because it’s muscle memory, right?

00:53:08:17 – 00:53:10:11
So if you’ve done it

00:53:10:11 – 00:53:13:11
over and over on your iPad or your paper,

00:53:13:12 – 00:53:15:18
obviously going into to do that,

00:53:15:18 – 00:53:18:16
On skin is going to feel normal.

00:53:18:16 – 00:53:21:02
Interestingly enough,

00:53:21:02 – 00:53:23:16
because I lived in California and Oregon,

00:53:23:16 – 00:53:26:14
in Oregon, we’re one of the few states

00:53:26:14 – 00:53:29:23
that required tattoo school

00:53:29:23 – 00:53:33:20
a person has to go to tattoo school and,

00:53:33:20 – 00:53:35:05
finish a program

00:53:35:05 – 00:53:38:01
and take a test to be licensed.

00:53:38:01 – 00:53:40:22
So it’s a little bit different experience

00:53:40:22 – 00:53:42:12
here than what

00:53:42:12 – 00:53:44:09
I was used to coming from California,

00:53:44:09 – 00:53:48:04
where basically, you know, you can

00:53:48:13 – 00:53:50:13
you can hone your skills

00:53:50:13 – 00:53:52:20
and opening up shop basically, you know,

00:53:52:20 – 00:53:55:17
there are some, important,

00:53:55:17 – 00:53:57:04
like bloodborne pathogens

00:53:57:04 – 00:53:59:17
and things that you need to be.

00:53:59:17 – 00:54:00:15
Yeah.

00:54:00:15 – 00:54:03:21
But in Oregon, they’re a little bit,

00:54:04:03 – 00:54:05:19
more strict with,

00:54:05:19 – 00:54:07:23
who could get into the field,

00:54:07:23 – 00:54:10:10
which there’s a lot of debate

00:54:10:10 – 00:54:13:15
in the tattoo world on tattoo schools.

00:54:13:15 – 00:54:14:01
There’s

00:54:14:01 – 00:54:15:20
kind of the old school way

00:54:15:20 – 00:54:19:02
of doing an apprentice ship, earning

00:54:19:03 – 00:54:20:00
your way,

00:54:20:00 – 00:54:20:09
you know,

00:54:20:09 – 00:54:21:21
which used to be

00:54:21:21 – 00:54:23:22
the way that things were done.

00:54:23:22 – 00:54:26:12
And, So.

00:54:26:12 – 00:54:27:23
But in Oregon, you just

00:54:27:23 – 00:54:30:06
you don’t have a choice.

00:54:30:06 – 00:54:32:08
You know, even with the even though

00:54:32:08 – 00:54:33:14
people, you know,

00:54:33:14 – 00:54:35:01
want them to earn it

00:54:35:01 – 00:54:36:03
and go through the old school

00:54:36:03 – 00:54:38:05
boy, you just have to go to school.

00:54:38:05 – 00:54:42:17
So, but I, I say just draw,

00:54:42:17 – 00:54:46:12
live it, breathe it, do your research.

00:54:46:12 – 00:54:48:17
Follow amazing tattoo artists.

00:54:48:17 – 00:54:51:20
That inspiration is so huge.

00:54:52:05 – 00:54:54:20
One of the things that our books

00:54:54:20 – 00:54:55:12
that we used to

00:54:55:12 – 00:54:58:14
make, were made for that purpose.

00:54:58:14 – 00:55:01:00
They were inspirational books

00:55:01:00 – 00:55:04:00
to get people to give ideas and stuff

00:55:04:00 – 00:55:04:14
for others.

00:55:04:14 – 00:55:06:03
And the way we would do

00:55:06:03 – 00:55:08:21
it is we would have a theme

00:55:08:21 – 00:55:11:01
and we would open up a call for art.

00:55:11:01 – 00:55:12:11
So for instance,

00:55:12:11 – 00:55:15:04
we had like a book on birds,

00:55:15:04 – 00:55:18:04
on one on insects, one on skulls,

00:55:18:05 – 00:55:21:02
one on under the sea, you know, so

00:55:21:02 – 00:55:22:16
we would have an idea,

00:55:22:16 – 00:55:24:23
open up the call for art.

00:55:24:23 – 00:55:26:14
People would create tattoos

00:55:26:14 – 00:55:29:04
or drawings or paintings or sculptures,

00:55:29:04 – 00:55:30:19
whatever their need then was,

00:55:30:19 – 00:55:33:23
and then they would submit the images.

00:55:34:06 – 00:55:35:01
And then once

00:55:35:01 – 00:55:37:03
we would get all of that stuff after,

00:55:37:03 – 00:55:38:19
we usually have, submissions open

00:55:38:19 – 00:55:40:14
for like 6 to 8 months,

00:55:40:14 – 00:55:41:15
and then we would take

00:55:41:15 – 00:55:42:19
all the submissions

00:55:42:19 – 00:55:44:07
and, and kind of choose

00:55:44:07 – 00:55:46:08
what was going to be in the books.

00:55:46:08 – 00:55:49:23
And they became kind of,

00:55:50:14 – 00:55:52:19
inspirational tools that a lot of tattoo

00:55:52:19 – 00:55:54:08
artists have in their shop,

00:55:54:08 – 00:55:55:15
so that when people come in

00:55:55:15 – 00:55:58:15
and they can look at ideas for that.

00:55:58:15 – 00:56:02:13
So, gathering, books and,

00:56:02:17 – 00:56:06:07
just all kinds of the line drawings

00:56:06:07 – 00:56:09:10
and anything you can do to practice

00:56:09:10 – 00:56:13:08
and just understand, what it takes

00:56:13:08 – 00:56:14:00
because it’s,

00:56:15:12 – 00:56:16:02
you have to be

00:56:16:02 – 00:56:17:04
very dedicated

00:56:17:04 – 00:56:19:20
to that craft to do well in it.

00:56:19:20 – 00:56:23:01
And, yeah, I love that.

00:56:23:01 – 00:56:25:18
It’s there are so many tattoo artists.

00:56:25:18 – 00:56:26:00
Yeah.

00:56:26:00 – 00:56:27:05
Which is so different

00:56:27:05 – 00:56:29:08
from when I first started.

00:56:29:08 – 00:56:31:04
But it’s so exciting to see

00:56:31:04 – 00:56:33:00
how many young people

00:56:33:00 – 00:56:34:20
are coming into the field.

00:56:34:20 – 00:56:36:08
It’s pretty cool.

00:56:36:08 – 00:56:37:02
They. Yeah.

00:56:37:02 – 00:56:38:19
I think, when talking about,

00:56:38:19 – 00:56:41:01
like, family members and tattoos,

00:56:41:01 – 00:56:43:12
my first family member

00:56:43:12 – 00:56:45:09
that had a tattoo that I saw.

00:56:45:09 – 00:56:46:05
So maybe others

00:56:46:05 – 00:56:47:03
did, you know,

00:56:47:03 – 00:56:50:03
it was my great Uncle Fred.

00:56:50:04 – 00:56:51:20
He was one of the last people

00:56:51:20 – 00:56:53:03
to be in the horse Calvary.

00:56:53:03 – 00:56:56:03
So he’s, you know, old, old man.

00:56:56:14 – 00:56:58:16
And he was, he was a marine,

00:56:58:16 – 00:56:59:19
and he was in the Navy.

00:56:59:19 – 00:57:02:02
So you you got to get a tattoo.

00:57:02:02 – 00:57:03:13
You just. Right.

00:57:03:13 – 00:57:06:15
So on his arm, he had a naked woman,

00:57:06:22 – 00:57:09:19
and he comes home and my great great

00:57:09:19 – 00:57:10:15
aunt goes,

00:57:10:15 – 00:57:12:13
you put some clothes on that lady.

00:57:13:16 – 00:57:15:06
So you had a tattoo, you

00:57:15:06 – 00:57:17:04
a bathing suit over her.

00:57:17:04 – 00:57:19:15
And so when I, I knew him, he was

00:57:19:15 – 00:57:22:10
he was in his 80s, into his 90s.

00:57:22:10 – 00:57:23:22
He was rolling around his wheelchair

00:57:23:22 – 00:57:24:19
and he would be like,

00:57:24:19 – 00:57:26:19
I can make her dance.

00:57:26:19 – 00:57:29:05
And we would just sit there

00:57:29:05 – 00:57:31:15
and he would make his, his lady dance.

00:57:31:15 – 00:57:32:11
And.

00:57:32:11 – 00:57:34:07
Yeah, it was,

00:57:34:07 – 00:57:35:22
when I knew him, it was fading.

00:57:35:22 – 00:57:37:18
It was obviously really old ink.

00:57:37:18 – 00:57:38:15
And so she was

00:57:38:15 – 00:57:41:15
both bathing suit and naked.

00:57:41:19 – 00:57:43:13
It’s like, no.

00:57:43:13 – 00:57:46:14
Oh, my God, I love that he went for it.

00:57:46:16 – 00:57:48:01
Yes, but for. Right.

00:57:48:01 – 00:57:49:13
And on his arm.

00:57:49:13 – 00:57:51:21
Yeah. That’s a very prominent place.

00:57:51:21 – 00:57:53:13
Oh, it’s right here. Yeah.

00:57:53:13 – 00:57:54:21
Oh. In the.

00:57:54:21 – 00:57:56:17
Oh, no.

00:57:56:17 – 00:57:58:07
Yeah. Watch her dance

00:58:01:08 – 00:58:01:21
Good for him.

00:58:01:21 – 00:58:03:21
Him? What was his name?

00:58:03:21 – 00:58:04:07
Fred.

00:58:04:07 – 00:58:05:11
Everybody called him Bus

00:58:05:11 – 00:58:07:15
and I called him Uncle Fred and. Yeah.

00:58:07:15 – 00:58:09:07
Rest in peace,he

00:58:09:07 – 00:58:11:19
he loved his little naked lady tattoo.

00:58:11:19 – 00:58:14:04
And his mama said, you he she said,

00:58:14:04 – 00:58:15:13
put some clothes on her.

00:58:15:13 – 00:58:18:13
You make her a right woman.

00:58:18:18 – 00:58:19:17
So.

00:58:19:17 – 00:58:22:07
Yeah, Good for him, man.

00:58:22:07 – 00:58:25:15
You see, like those during that time,

00:58:26:02 – 00:58:29:13
it was, you know, a lot of a lot of,

00:58:29:13 – 00:58:30:04
you know,

00:58:30:04 – 00:58:33:17
naval officers or motorcycle gangs.

00:58:33:22 – 00:58:34:08
It’s like,

00:58:34:08 – 00:58:36:16
you know, it’s that old school,

00:58:36:16 – 00:58:37:22
that stigma

00:58:37:22 – 00:58:40:02
that that kind of stuck for so long.

00:58:40:02 – 00:58:42:17
But for him, that’s so cute.

00:58:42:17 – 00:58:44:16
That’s a great story.

00:58:44:16 – 00:58:45:00
Yeah.

00:58:45:00 – 00:58:46:17
And then, as the listeners know,

00:58:46:17 – 00:58:47:19
my dad is in the Navy,

00:58:47:19 – 00:58:49:06
but he was deathly afraid of needles,

00:58:49:06 – 00:58:50:05
so that was the only reason

00:58:50:05 – 00:58:51:13
he didn’t get a tattoo.

00:58:51:13 – 00:58:53:04
And,

00:58:53:04 – 00:58:55:19
I guess my grandma had to pick it up.

00:58:57:16 – 00:58:58:18
I you okay?

00:58:58:18 – 00:59:00:07
So it’s like my aunt with the lips,

00:59:00:07 – 00:59:01:14
my grandma with the eyeliner.

00:59:01:14 – 00:59:03:05
So I guess I have to have eyebrows.

00:59:03:05 – 00:59:05:19
Like, that’s the only other. Oh,

00:59:05:19 – 00:59:07:06
that I know

00:59:07:06 – 00:59:10:01
you are definitely next, don’t you think?

00:59:10:01 – 00:59:11:04
Stefanie? She.

00:59:11:04 – 00:59:14:04
It’s got to be up.

00:59:14:05 – 00:59:15:10
Yeah.

00:59:15:10 – 00:59:17:09
Well, this is completely lovely.

00:59:17:09 – 00:59:20:10
And before we wrap up, Dr. Jinxi

00:59:20:10 – 00:59:21:15
where can our listeners

00:59:21:15 – 00:59:23:14
find more information about your work

00:59:23:14 – 00:59:25:03
and maybe some resources

00:59:25:03 – 00:59:25:22
that you’d recommend

00:59:25:22 – 00:59:27:02
for those interested

00:59:27:02 – 00:59:28:04
in the positive mental

00:59:28:04 – 00:59:30:00
health effects of tattoos?

00:59:30:00 – 00:59:32:01
Oh, thank you for asking.

00:59:32:01 – 00:59:32:11
You know,

00:59:32:11 – 00:59:34:03
I do have,

00:59:34:03 – 00:59:36:08
there’s an amazing tattoo artist.

00:59:36:08 – 00:59:39:16
She’s also an interdisciplinary artist

00:59:39:16 – 00:59:41:15
in many amazing mediums.

00:59:41:15 – 00:59:44:16
But her name is Tamara Santibanez

00:59:45:03 – 00:59:46:12
and she wrote,

00:59:46:12 – 00:59:49:07
I think it was 2021 or 2022.

00:59:49:07 – 00:59:51:00
She wrote this really incredible

00:59:51:00 – 00:59:52:02
book called,

00:59:52:02 – 00:59:52:22
Could This

00:59:52:22 – 00:59:56:11
Be Magic Tattooing as Liberation Work.

00:59:57:00 – 00:59:59:06
And it’s beautiful.

00:59:59:06 – 01:00:04:12
It’s, it talks about, trauma

01:00:04:17 – 01:00:06:06
and, you know,

01:00:06:06 – 01:00:09:06
using tattooing as a way to,

01:00:09:06 – 01:00:12:18
kind of help people create boundaries

01:00:13:04 – 01:00:16:03
and shape being like, a more ethical

01:00:16:03 – 01:00:19:23
way of doing that work,

01:00:19:23 – 01:00:21:09
in with it

01:00:21:09 – 01:00:24:09
through a, trauma informed lens.

01:00:24:15 – 01:00:27:07
And she has the full pdf of that book

01:00:27:07 – 01:00:29:18
for free actually on her website.

01:00:29:18 – 01:00:33:10
So it’s I highly recommend that,

01:00:33:10 – 01:00:34:21
and then there’s another,

01:00:34:21 – 01:00:37:21
I think it’s from the early 2000,

01:00:37:23 – 01:00:39:05
but it’s called

01:00:39:05 – 01:00:42:19
Tattooed: The Socio Genesis of Body Art.

01:00:43:05 – 01:00:45:00
And it’s really a great book

01:00:45:00 – 01:00:46:14
by Michael Atkinson,

01:00:46:14 – 01:00:49:17
and it has a lot of research in it

01:00:49:17 – 01:00:50:22
that connects,

01:00:50:22 – 01:00:53:05
a lot of the psychological,

01:00:53:05 – 01:00:56:05
components that we talked about today.

01:00:56:06 – 01:00:58:20
So definitely recommend those.

01:00:58:20 – 01:01:04:09
And then me, I oh, thank my,

01:01:04:09 – 01:01:05:08
my website

01:01:05:08 – 01:01:08:15
for my practice is, drjinxi.com

01:01:10:00 – 01:01:12:10
And then my, Instagram,

01:01:12:10 – 01:01:15:10
like, my personal Instagram is @Jinxi

01:01:16:18 – 01:01:22:05
Our tattoo shop is @OOSTattoo

01:01:22:05 – 01:01:25:01
And, the book publishing

01:01:25:01 – 01:01:29:09
company is @OutofStepBooks

01:01:29:09 – 01:01:32:03
and, all of our tattoo and art

01:01:32:03 – 01:01:33:15
books can be found.

01:01:33:15 – 01:01:37:01
oosbooks.com

01:01:38:08 – 01:01:41:01
And I think that’s it.

01:01:41:01 – 01:01:42:03
You can find me a like

01:01:42:03 – 01:01:44:03
LinkedIn and ResearchGate

01:01:44:03 – 01:01:47:03
with some of my my research, with just

01:01:47:03 – 01:01:50:03
putting my name in it.

01:01:50:12 – 01:01:52:02
Wonderful, wonderful.

01:01:52:02 – 01:01:52:13
Well,

01:01:52:13 – 01:01:54:15
if you have an amazing Disney

01:01:54:15 – 01:01:55:04
tattoo,

01:01:55:04 – 01:01:57:06
please DM us an image of it

01:01:57:06 – 01:01:59:00
@HappiestPodGT

01:01:59:00 – 01:02:02:03
You can find us on IG and on X.

01:02:02:15 – 01:02:03:03
Thank you,

01:02:03:03 – 01:02:04:19
Dr. Jinxi this is a beautiful,

01:02:04:19 – 01:02:06:06
wonderful conversation.

01:02:06:06 – 01:02:08:08
So much for joining.

01:02:08:08 – 01:02:11:10
Hopefully me or Ariel could visit

01:02:11:10 – 01:02:13:18
you one day. Oh, I would love that.

Media/Characters Mentioned

• Alice in Wonderland
• Nightmare Before Christmas
• Toy Story (Woody)
• Moana
• Pocahontas
• Tinkerbell
• Lilo & Stitch
• Mickey Mouse (parks food)
• Star Wars (lightsabers, rebels)
• Marvel (Captain America, Black Panther)

Topics/Themes Mentioned
  • Tattoo culture and stigma
  • Identity and self-expression
  • Disney nostalgia and fandom
  • Permanent makeup & family traditions
  • Healing through art
  • Storytelling through bodywork
  • Representation in education and therapy
  • Cultural tattoo practices
  • Tattoos as community and connection

DR. Jinxi’s website: www.drjinxi.com
Dr. Jinxi’s Tattoo + Book Publishing: oosbooks.com
IG: @oostattoo

Website: happy.geektherapy.com
| Instagram: @HappiestPodGT | X: @HappiestPodGT | Facebook: @HappiestPodGT |
| Stef on X: @stefa_kneee | Ariel on Instagram: @airyell3000 |

Geek Therapy is a 501(c)(3) non-profit that advocates for the effective and meaningful use of popular media in therapeutic, educational, and community practice.
Website: www.geektherapy.org
| GT Facebook: @GeekTherapy | GT Facebook Group: @GeekTherapyCommunity
| GT X: @GeekTherapy | GT Discord: geektherapy.com/discord |
| GT Forum: forum.geektherapy.com |

Queer Cheer: Disney Dreams & Rainbow Realness

June 19, 2024 · Discuss on the GT Forum

https://media.blubrry.com/happypod/media.transistor.fm/ab1fabd2/573f021f.mp3

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Join Ariel, Stef, and their guests Jodie Anders and Shalom (aka Boy Venus) for an honest, colorful, and insightful episode that celebrates queer identity through the magic (and mess) of Disney. The conversation spans nostalgic awakenings, media analysis, cultural critique, and the affirming power of telling your story—your way.

Jodie, author of Queer Cheer, shares how travel and diverse narratives helped her discover her own queerness. Shalom, a young activist and indie musician, reflects on the power of subtext in media like Luca and Frozen, and how art has been central to their self-exploration. Together, this group celebrates Pride, critiques tokenism, and envisions a future where queer stories aren’t subplots—they’re the main event.

Summary

Summary of HPOE 45:

  • 00:00 Hosts and Guests Introduction
  • 00:50 Pride Month focus and framing queer media through Disney
  • 02:00 Progress or performative? Disney’s track record on LGBTQ+ representation
  • 06:00 Nostalgic queer awakenings: crushes, princesses, and games
  • 10:00 Queer coding in villains: Ursula, Jafar, and beyond
  • 13:30 Explaining the Hays Code and its legacy in queer subtext
  • 15:00 Highlights from Disney’s official Pride Night
  • 18:00 Emotional weight of safe spaces at theme parks
  • 20:00 Critiques of Disney’s capitalist allyship
  • 22:00 Centering joy: queer characters beyond coming-out stories
  • 24:30 Luca and fan interpretations as liberation
  • 28:30 Elsa, headcanons, and intersectional readings
  • 31:00 The power of dynamic identities in evolving characters
  • 33:00 Queering Spider-Man and self-discovery through metaphor
  • 36:00 Labels, fluidity, and growing into new identities
  • 38:00 Demisexuality and the importance of representation
  • 40:00 Jodie on travel, storytelling, and affirming queer youth
  • 43:00 Affirmations that actually work
  • 46:00 Shalom on community building and queer history
  • 50:00 Spotlighting queer media: Punks, Watermelon Woman, indie music
  • 54:00 Real allyship: more than rainbows—listen, uplift, include
  • 59:00 Final thoughts and where to find Queer Cheer and Boy Venus’s music
Transcription

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:08:18

00:00:08:18 – 00:00:35:00

Unknown

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the happiest pot on Earth. I’m Steph. I’m an educator who uses passions and fandoms to help my students grow and learn about themselves and the world around them. And I’m Ariel, a licensed therapist who uses clients passions and fandom to help them grow and heal from trauma and mental and wellness. Hey everyone, I’m Jodi Anders, I am a Jewish bisexual creator and I focus on creating diversity and promoting youth empowerment.

00:00:35:02 – 00:01:01:01

Unknown

I currently serve as the publicity and communications director for a youth nonprofit in California, and I’ve spent over two decades mentoring teens in confidence and leadership skills. I’m the coauthor author of Queer Cheer Activities Advice and Affirmations for LGBTQ Plus Teens, and I also produce a podcast. Let’s talk about leadership, service, and Sisterhood, which is a podcast for teens by teens.

00:01:01:01 – 00:01:25:12

Unknown

Hi. My name is Shalom. As a student, I’ve been involved in many campaigns and community organizing organizations, working with youth organizers in the San Fernando Valley to fight for the rights of Filipino migrant workers, justice and visibility for displaced ethnic communities abroad, and have worked to create, support and educate members of the Residents of Color community through the creation of my ever growing coalition.

00:01:25:14 – 00:01:51:16

Unknown

California State University, Northridge is Queer Students of Color Club. I’m also a queer indie musician, producing music under the name Boy Venus. Check me out on SoundCloud if you’re interested. Specifically working within the electronic genre to make music reminiscent of games like Pokemon Legends of Zelda, Undertale, while also using techniques from artists like Rebecca Sugar, Ivy Tran and Stephen Filemon.

00:01:52:00 – 00:02:08:14

Unknown

beautiful. And here at Happiest Pod, we dissect Disney Medium. So the critical lens. Why? Because we are more than just fans and we expect more from the mediums we consume. So, what are we talking about today? As you both heard these wonderful introductions from our exceptional guests today we have Jodi and Shalom.

00:02:08:15 – 00:02:38:08

Unknown

Welcome to the happiest Pod on Earth. We are so thrilled that you are here to talk about all things LGBTQ representation. In honor of Pride Month and we’re really excited to really dive in, and, see the world and see the Disney World from Euro Isles lens. So yeah, welcome to the podcast. So to be here, I’m curious, you know, we have heard about representation in general in the media.

00:02:38:08 – 00:02:59:20

Unknown

And when it comes to Disney, do you feel or believe that they’re increasing LGBTQ plus representation, and if so, when do you think they’ve done it? And are there opportunities they missed or were they just like completely missed the mark? I feel like it’s kind of like an ebb and flow situation. I mean, it’s definitely had some more, you know, representation.

00:02:59:20 – 00:03:24:23

Unknown

And actually this discussion can get so nuanced, right? Because are we talking about like, original animation? Are we talking about like the entire Disney, universe, you know, within Marvel and Star Wars? So, at this point, apparently Hulu’s in there too. So if there’s some horror movies, or other anime animation you want to include that counts.

00:03:25:01 – 00:04:11:02

Unknown

Yeah, I think like in the more like traditional sense of Disney Pixar. It’s it’s slowly increasing, like strictly within like movies and TV. Like in movies, I feel like we’re still not other than maybe like Strange World getting those main characters. That would be great. But, it’s really nice to see at least, you know, some nuances through the community, like having a non-binary character in elementals or, just, you know, at least some representation.

00:04:11:02 – 00:04:57:15

Unknown

Which is better than that. But, there’s also just questionable things that they’ve done in the sense of like pulling from different markets or, you know, like, I know, so, like when they did Lightyear, I, I loved that they had a Lisa like, that his sidekick was such a big representation. And then it was so incredibly heartbreaking to have this, reaction to what was not even a minute of their relationship, the lesbian relationship she had, which was this beautiful little heartwarming family and, seeing at the time, like them, like pulling it from market to things like that.

00:04:57:17 – 00:05:01:20

Unknown

But at the same time, like, if we kind of pull back the lens a little bit,

00:05:01:20 – 00:05:25:22

Unknown

at the same time, there’s like getting the, the monthly emails, not even just the LGBTQ, pieces. They will highlight a monthly email, but like other minority communities and, even, like, abilities, I think they’re doing better on, although sometimes embarrassing when they maybe only have 1 or 2.

00:05:26:00 – 00:05:49:16

Unknown

And I mean, I went to Pride Night. I just do that last night, which, you know, they now officially have their official one. And how many years do we have our unofficial. You know, we we still do have kids at Disneyland, but like, it’s nice that they’re officially hosting that. So. Getting better. But riding a wave and still carrying a little too much.

00:05:49:16 – 00:06:15:06

Unknown

Maybe about what some people think. Sheila, any thoughts on your in? Yeah. I totally agree. And I think when thinking about representation at Disney, it’s when you look at it as like a conglomerate. I do think that they’ve missed the mark in a lot of ways. But I do think if you look at individual stories and individual narratives, then, you know, there’s some great representation.

00:06:15:08 – 00:06:31:16

Unknown

At Disney for queer people, like just recently, in fact, they did a remake of the goosebumps books, and Myles McKenna, who’s a trans, activist, trans activist, actor and musician, is one of the leads in the show. And so, like,

00:06:31:16 – 00:06:45:16

Unknown

individual properties, you know, they do have great representation. And even ones that, like, aren’t necessarily inherently queer, like frozen, you know what I mean?

00:06:45:16 – 00:07:10:02

Unknown

Or like, not well, turning red too. But then also, Luca, you know, those are movies that weren’t intended to be queer, but they’re autobiographical stories that, you know, queer people can relate to. You know, like having those is great and that it makes you feel more seen. But I think as a, like a conglomeration, I think that’s really the way.

00:07:10:04 – 00:07:39:18

Unknown

And I love when you said that there are stories that have been out there that queer people can relate to. So thinking back when you were younger, did you have any specific Disney characters that you were drawn to? Or like you were you just felt this special connection to real? Yeah. I, Todd, Jody and Eric, actually that, the way that I found out that I was queer is through watching The Little Mermaid.

00:07:39:20 – 00:08:06:04

Unknown

Because I had a crush on both Eric and area. Yes. And that was really my first, like, understanding of queerness, you know, even before I could put words to it. Disney kind of opened up my mind for queerness, and I think a large part of that was like, I grew up, for a while in a very, like, predominantly woman like community.

00:08:06:04 – 00:08:34:06

Unknown

I don’t know how to say that, but I grew up with a lot of women, basically. My best friend for like a long time was my cousin, and, like, she taught me how to braid. She taught me how to, like, dress dolls and things. Like, I learned how to paint nails and, we would watch, like, Disney princess movies and play the little like, there used to be a switch game where you just got, like, a toggle and you just slid like, I don’t know, not switch.

00:08:34:08 – 00:08:54:08

Unknown

We like, tendo we Disney princess game. Yeah. Where you just, like, would toggle and, like, do little mini games for each Disney princess. And I was like, my favorite game. And so like, yeah, I think Disney in a lot of ways as, like a child was my first avenue of queerness even before I knew what it meant.

00:08:54:10 – 00:09:35:08

Unknown

So. Yeah. Yeah. How about you, Jody? Oh my gosh. You know, I think that I like to be 1,000% honest. Like, until I got older, like, I missed a lot of, like, the queer coding that happened in Disney. And it’s incredible. Like, even, you know, when I was pregnant, last night, like, seeing quotes and seeing things that are pulled out of, like, movies that I watched as a teenager, that I’m like, oh my gosh, like, how did I miss, like given that, like we just talked about a Little Mermaid, you know, and like, the entire, like, part of their world on, you know, and how so many people have

00:09:35:08 – 00:10:08:02

Unknown

taken that on as like a, an anthem. Otherness in a way, you know, like, and now like, kind of thinking back to, you know, how much like I was obsessed at the time with like, beauty and the beast and, just kind of thinking that I, I felt that like, I saw it like I saw, characters that were, that were othered and that were, like, outcast and that I was drawn to them without, like, really understanding what was happening to me.

00:10:08:04 – 00:10:34:12

Unknown

Yeah. Something so beautiful, especially about The Little Mermaid two that you reminded me of Jodi is like, I think the guy who wrote it was queer. And like his writing of The Little Mermaid story was about, like, his experience with unrequited love as a queer person. Which is why when the prince rejects her, she, like, turns into seafoam at the end.

00:10:34:14 – 00:10:51:06

Unknown

And the original, Hans Christian Andersen, like. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I don’t know, it’s like there’s beauty even in that. Just like exposing people to queer stories, even if they aren’t like queer when you’re exposed to that. Yeah. You know what I mean?

00:10:51:07 – 00:11:18:18

Unknown

and for our listeners, our episode 24 Disney Villains, where we had chance on, he explained what queer coding is, which is an attribution of queer traits to a fictional character, sometimes stereotypical, sometimes, hidden, where they create a expression of gender identity or sexual orientation that, could be projected onto them for people who have a queer experience.

00:11:18:20 – 00:11:49:05

Unknown

And the reason we talked about that in the Dylan the Villains episode is because a lot of villains are quite coded. And speaking of villains, the inspiration for Ursula herself was a drag queen named divine. So it was right there in front of our faces for a very long time. And that it posed as inspiration. And she isn’t such an iconic villain that, you know, Ursula in herself, the way Disney portrayed her was very tied to queerness.

00:11:49:07 – 00:12:09:00

Unknown

It was so funny, actually, when I was talking with a friend of mine about, which characters are queer coded in Disney? There was like kind of a piece of me that was like, why are they villains? And I was like, rejecting something. And like, one of them came up. Jafar. Right. And and I was like, Jafar.

00:12:09:01 – 00:12:50:17

Unknown

What? Why are there so many people? It’s ever, like looking into it and actually, the creator who was gay said, yes, I created him after, like. And I’m like, I’m wrong. I’m wrong. You know, like. Yeah, yeah. It’s especially interesting to think about things like that, like with, the impacts of the Hays Code and, you know, film and television, you know, like having to queer code characters, so that people can have representation and see themselves and like the idea of Devo worshiping and things like that come from the Hays Code and like, not having proper representation.

00:12:50:17 – 00:13:26:14

Unknown

So you cling to like, female characters who go through similar things as you and like, I don’t know, it’s like even when they try to stop us, we’ll find a way. And I just love that, you know what I mean? Are you able to explain to our audience with the Hays Code? Is, yes. So the Hays Code was a list of rules, and guidelines for television and film that were created and enforced, from, I think, the 1930s to the 1960s, 1934 to 1968.

00:13:26:16 – 00:13:57:07

Unknown

Yes. Yes. Yeah. And so, it prohibited things like, like conversations about menstruation. I’m pretty sure, as well as birth, like just real. Yeah. Birth. Anything that was considered, like, sexually promiscuous, or like perverted, which includes queer people. I think conversations about, like, wrongdoings of the military as well were in there.

00:13:57:07 – 00:14:20:07

Unknown

Yes. So, yeah. Yeah, a lot of censoring. A lot of things. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And and we know it ended in, the 60s because of the civil rights movement and the push towards appropriate representation and questioning some of the things that we were seeing on screen, specifically the, the rule that was respect for the law and that law could not be ridiculed.

00:14:20:07 – 00:14:30:03

Unknown

And there should be, sympathy towards, those who might violate it if they are within uniform. Yeah. In that progression for sure.

00:14:30:03 – 00:14:58:08

Unknown

Jody, could you tell us about Pride Night? Is there one thing you really loved and one thing that you would change? So. Right. Night. They had their first night last night, and, Guys. Okay. I just remember, like, first thing that happened last night, so we we there’s, like, a lot of really cute things, like, there’s an overabundance of rainbow food, which is, like, overwhelming.

00:14:58:10 – 00:15:26:13

Unknown

And there’s, like, lots of really cute, like, backdrops that you can take your picture with and quotes that they’ve taken from, like, different movies they perceive to, you know, being inspirational and related to pride. But I love my favorite things are, one that they take the characters and they dress them in cool like pride, rainbow clothes that like, make you like, sorry.

00:15:26:14 – 00:15:51:05

Unknown

No, it was Donald. No, I said Mickey. Donald’s like, my favorite. Donald had. That’s like, beanie hat thing on with a cute little rainbow. Is it like a beret? Glitter? Or would you call it rhinestone? You know, they really. Because it was like a beanie hat with, like, rhinestone heart in rainbow hat, and he’s, like, pointing it out to me.

00:15:51:05 – 00:16:09:15

Unknown

It was the cutest thing. And then, like, Clarabelle had this, like, rainbow pleated dress on, Oh, my gosh, there’s so many highlights, guys. And then Melissa and Cruella literally did like a,

00:16:09:15 – 00:16:21:09

Unknown

a runway. They did like, they were like they were voguing. Yes, they were, they were they were holding hands. I would have loved to see that.

00:16:21:11 – 00:16:51:22

Unknown

Wow. I was so yeah, I hope there’s a recording that I, there’s got to be I know that people were okay. We got there like, just in time, to see it. And I was dying. I was dying just talking about how they’re also queer coded and. That they were they were amazing. They were amazing. But okay, literally the best thing, honestly, to be is,

00:16:52:00 – 00:17:18:20

Unknown

Guys, like, anywhere I, anywhere I go, like, sometimes there’s a question of like, am I going into the space where it’s safe? Like, is it okay for me to wear something pride related or, you know, and it was just so beautiful. Like I was telling my friend last night, when I’m in a space and I see something like rainbow or I see something pride, my eye like zooms to it like, oh, that’s somebody from my community or that’s Covid, you know, whatever.

00:17:18:22 – 00:17:47:05

Unknown

And everybody last night, like every single person is way sometimes like, oh my gosh, this is like this, this is my place. And we’re dancing with like Lilo and Stitch and I’m looking at I’m like, oh my gosh, there’s every like person from every background, every ability. And we’re all dancing together and like, we don’t care, you know, can we we look like we’re we’re like, say, do we like how silly we look like we’re just happy.

00:17:47:05 – 00:18:11:03

Unknown

Like we’re accepted. We’re here. Like, this is gorgeous. Like that. Like, to me, the beauty of any pride space, really. And it was nice for Disneyland to give that to us. Beautiful. Wonderful. Oh, that’s so lovely. It sounds way better than what happened to me. And stuff was like, so I’m so. Oh, yeah, yeah, listen to that song if you want to hear about it.

00:18:11:03 – 00:18:39:12

Unknown

But yeah, all the drama about that. I mean, there’s certainly like misses and the marks that they make, you know, and there’s so much like merchandizing and you know, there’s things you could dissect from it. But like having having that space though, like it definitely means something to me as I mean, I’m I will relate. When I was younger and I went for gay days, like with a friend, we took a picture with Cinderella.

00:18:39:14 – 00:19:04:20

Unknown

And I was telling my friend last night, like, it’s such a world of difference that, like, we have these characters now that are dressed up in rainbow and we’re having fun and there’s like jokey and doing like, very clear coded like things where as when I went when I was younger, two unofficial gay days and I like went to take a picture with Cinderella.

00:19:04:22 – 00:19:34:23

Unknown

She literally cringed at this. So difference, Night and day difference. And and you are talking about and we’ve talked about this on the podcast when it comes to the, Disneyland community. I don’t know about Disney World. We have unofficial theme days, that have started to slowly become more official in this case, like actually taken on by the, organization.

00:19:35:01 – 00:19:59:03

Unknown

Because I know, like, our friend Tania goes on bats day, for, like, all the emo, goth and, like a metal community. And sometimes the characters will wear, like, dark clothing, but that one isn’t official yet. So as we start to have more voices, that kind of makes Disneyland want to do more things.

00:19:59:05 – 00:20:20:14

Unknown

Maybe for capitalism, but that’s fine. Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. You know, you get to, like, exploit their capitalism, I guess. I don’t know, it’s a very weird line. It’s a weird line. Yeah, yeah. But I’m glad you had a really great experience. And, you know, hopefully in the future that they make these after Dark events more, more inclusive.

00:20:20:14 – 00:20:42:23

Unknown

And also just like reserving that space, that public space, I think is what I’m hearing was most important. And recognizing that public space for your community, I think that that that was my biggest takeaway from that. And, you know, hopefully they continue to do it in the future because as we know, some After Dark events have been canceled and they haven’t been brought back.

00:20:43:04 – 00:21:11:11

Unknown

I hope you all get how many days are they doing? Right now? Is it was it just one or. It’s multiple, right. I think two is. I know they’re doing it tomorrow. Great. Good. Okay. Yeah. 18th and the 20th. Yes. And and something that we’ve also talked about on the podcast is if you’re doing any of the night events, the second day is usually a little different than the first day because they’ve learned something like organization wise.

00:21:11:13 – 00:21:31:05

Unknown

And so sometimes that makes it a little bit easier to navigate. Sometimes it adds its own little barrier to it. So, you can’t you can’t even compare the same event. I would love to get like, the participants from every single different event and then have like, this roundtable discussion of what worked, what didn’t work. Did you get to eat?

00:21:31:07 – 00:21:49:17

Unknown

Did you get to like, drink the thing you wanted to drink? Did you get to take a picture with that character? Because I want to know these these stories. But anyway, I digress. But yeah. Anything else? Ariel? Yeah. Was the food actually good or was it just slapped a rainbow? A lot of it seems to be like slap rainbow on it.

00:21:49:18 – 00:22:10:09

Unknown

We did not try. I really I think there was okay. There was a Rice Krispie that was kind of calling my name, and I was like, it just looks pretty. I know what that Rice Krispie taste like. I don’t need, yeah. Also that much sugar after dark. It is a lot. And, you know, it’s not like during the day when you’re burning calories.

00:22:10:09 – 00:22:27:15

Unknown

It’s you’re you’re consuming all of this and then you’re going to like, pass out, wherever you are at the end of the night, there was, I think instead of the gray stuff, they had the rainbow stuff from beauty and the beast. It’s delicious. Like, okay.

00:22:27:15 – 00:22:43:14

Unknown

And thinking about Disney’s role in advocacy and inclusion, what are both of y’all’s thoughts on how Disney can continue to be a positive force for inclusion and representation within the LGBTQ plus community? Because I know there is a lot of work to do still.

00:22:43:15 – 00:23:06:06

Unknown

But you know, keeping as we are trying to think of it in a positive light because, you know, we really we, we know that there’s work to be done, like I said. But what do you think? What do you think that you’re doing. Right. And what can they expand on that basically? I mean, I think positive queer characters in main roles.

00:23:06:08 – 00:23:33:04

Unknown

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And not pitting them as sidekicks or not just being a B line story. Because these stories and deserve to be highlighted, right? Yeah. And, you know, not just doing the traditional, like coming out or having a place in trauma, you know, showing us in the light, succeeding and thriving. And that’s not our entire identity.

00:23:33:06 – 00:23:58:09

Unknown

But like, yeah, like highlighting and showing normalcy basically. Yeah. I do think, though, that an issue that Disney has been facing with their mainstream stuff is the fact that they’re trying to be like, yes, gay people are normal, so we won’t bring attention to it. They’re gay. Right? But you know, because it’s normal. It’s like, yeah, we’ll have like two seconds of them with a little pride flag in the background.

00:23:58:11 – 00:24:19:15

Unknown

Which I feel like Disney hasn’t earned the right to be there yet. Low key. Like we have to go through the, like, conversations about being queer before we can get to the point where it’s normal. And Disney is kind of like a homophobic parent right now. It’s like, yeah, I’m so glad that you’re like, you came out to me.

00:24:19:18 – 00:24:58:12

Unknown

Let’s hide it from the family that you know what I mean? Great point. Yeah. And so accurate. Yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah, I, I think when it comes to the inclusion, how did any of you see the, the Pixar short out. Yes. Oh yeah. Yeah. It came out in May 2020. So the way the pandemic and it features two prominent gay men and one of them is just coming out to his parent for like the first time.

00:24:58:14 – 00:25:22:17

Unknown

And the kiss and and it’s a Pixar short. So, you know, of course it’s Pixar of when it comes to like, I feel more diversity and inclusion. Pixar is doing it way more than the Disney, although the news has come out that there might roll that back, which will be very sad. However, I was really happy to see it was an entire short and he was scared, but there wasn’t a traumatic experience.

00:25:22:17 – 00:25:42:17

Unknown

Like, I think one of the things that I hear from a lot of my queer friends is like, can I have a gay character that doesn’t get murdered after they’ve fallen in love? Like, that’s what we see in mainstream. And like, you know, I had a lot of them say, if Disney puts more queer people in, they’re going to they’re going to be a parent that gets murdered because that’s like Disney, that model.

00:25:42:19 – 00:26:03:06

Unknown

So it’s like, is that in a line with Disney, or is it like just feeding this narrative of trauma within the community versus celebration? And so that the short is the only one that I can think of where it’s prominent? There’s main characters. It’s not, assumed they’re not in the background. There’s not a lot of conversation happening.

00:26:03:06 – 00:26:25:01

Unknown

I think, but we understand the essence of just, like, wanting to, be in a relationship, feeling a little bit of butterflies and then kind of sharing that experience with your parent, and it being okay. I think that was the other thing. There was no, rejection. There was, confusion from the parents of, like, what exactly are you hiding from me?

00:26:25:03 – 00:26:55:03

Unknown

And I thought it was a really beautiful short, but it’s the only one that comes to my mind where I’m not imprinting. Otherwise, it’s like Luca to me is it’s like queer representation of not only potentially bi or pan people, but even queer romance, right? That isn’t just monogamous or heteronormative in that sense. Yeah, like Luca is so amazing because the creator of Luca was like, I didn’t intend for this to be gay, but real, you know what I mean?

00:26:55:03 – 00:27:20:02

Unknown

Like, if that’s how you all see it, then that’s how you all see it. And I’m glad. But when I watched Luca, I was I don’t remember the names of the characters, but the target boy or the tall not gave away the taller gay boy. I was like, he’s gay. I yeah, I don’t know. Yeah. Luca, Alberto and Julia.

00:27:20:02 – 00:27:48:03

Unknown

Julia. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Alberto. I thought Alberto was so queer. Just even by, I don’t know, I think, like, I just saw so much of myself and Alberto. I’ve had experiences like that as a kid, you know what I mean? Like having an identity that you have to keep hidden, and that you share with someone close to you and you’re like, OMG, we have the same identity.

00:27:48:03 – 00:28:15:17

Unknown

This is crazy. But then when it comes to expressing that in public, you know, there’s fear of rejection. Especially from, you know, a place of wanting to feel at home and being afraid that by losing, you know, that connection with these people that you’ve just met, you know, you’ll never have community again. Which is what I could tell was going through Lucas mind when he was like, ill get that.

00:28:15:18 – 00:28:45:00

Unknown

He wants to get away from me. So, yeah, I don’t know. It’s just it’s such a good, like, encapsulation of, like, an early queer experience that it’s crazy that it wasn’t meant to be that way. But it’s also amazing that, you know, like, identity is multifaceted and it’s so intersectional that, like, you can exist within, like, different identities and still be able to see yourself through the same story.

00:28:45:02 – 00:29:05:18

Unknown

And yeah, Bangor movie is just so good. I love that, I love Luca like it immediately became one of my favorite like Disney movies. And yeah, there was no way. I mean, I know, like all my friends at the time were just like, this movie has to be the gay like, there’s just no way that it’s not.

00:29:05:22 – 00:29:35:10

Unknown

But I also think it’s like kind of beautiful. That it’s not explicitly because it’s maybe but we, that we can be like hey look at this story. Look at this experience so that you can have some understanding. Yeah, yeah, yeah I think that’s really interesting that you note that because I have heard people say that, the Ace community has hoped that Elsa is ace because it doesn’t seem like she has a desire for a romance or a desire for sexual attraction.

00:29:35:12 – 00:29:56:12

Unknown

And then I’ve seen, the, lesbian community hope that she gets a woman partner or, a same sex partner because she could be lesbian. And if we if we pick a route, then that kind of excludes somebody else. But if we don’t pick her out, everyone can project on. But then we didn’t pick her out, which makes it look like excluding everybody.

00:29:56:14 – 00:30:28:12

Unknown

But she could also be lesbian and bisexual, you know what I mean? Like, these identities are intersectional. They’re not like, yeah, one or the other. And I don’t know, like, I think real, I think real, I think also in a way which I don’t know, maybe you should edit this out, but I think in a way, a lot of Disney characters are asexual, just because it’s not really possible for them to express themselves on film outside, just romantically.

00:30:28:14 – 00:30:50:04

Unknown

Yeah. So but then again, like, that’s not really proper representation for anyone who is asexual because there’s nuance in that. Yes. You know what I mean. You see, one of the characters that, we were talking about kind of being like, attributed as a queer coded character was the Meredith from brave and we were sort of like thinking about it.

00:30:50:04 – 00:31:25:04

Unknown

And essentially the entire kind of reason that she’s queer coded is that, oh, she’s this strong woman who, like, doesn’t have a romantic, character or lead that I’m like, wait a minute, is that really a reason for her to be, like, attributed as a lesbian? As simply like it seems? Yeah. A little sassy. Yeah, I’ve heard that about Moana, too, just because she is just so hyper focused on, you know, just saving her village and nothing else to her matters.

00:31:25:06 – 00:31:47:16

Unknown

But I’m. I felt the same way. I’m like, are we are we really looking at her multifaceted ness, or are we just attributing it to the way that she’s approaching her situation? I, I really love that, you know? Shalom. You were saying that people are so multifaceted, and when we’re looking at them in a story, so many people want to see them as just like one or the other.

00:31:47:18 – 00:32:18:01

Unknown

Whereas when you’re looking at them as a human being, you know that they exist in different ways at different times all the time, because it is it’s dynamic us, our existence is dynamic. And not to get super existential about it, but, you know, it’s it’s very hard to in capsule8 that in a film. But at the same time, I think with stories like Luca, because it the story itself was so rich and the message was told very clearly without explicit instruction.

00:32:18:03 – 00:32:48:02

Unknown

That’s the power of storytelling. And I think if we do more of that kind of storytelling, it isn’t a debate anymore. It’s just how are you impacted by the story and what made you feel the way you felt? Yeah. You know, and I think also even with characters that are like in heteronormative relationships, you know, characters can still be headcanon and different things like, I know, for the trans masculine community, Spider-Man is a big you know, there’s a lot of headcanon set.

00:32:48:02 – 00:33:21:11

Unknown

Peter Parker is trans fat, you know what I mean? Just because of his experience with, like, being bit or, you know, the effects of an external force and changing your body and, you know, some extenuating ways, and then you being seen as more masculine, you know, and being, I don’t know, just perceived as so many different things than you were before or, you know, people a lot of people have compared Peter Parker’s experience before getting bit to gender dysphoria.

00:33:21:13 – 00:33:50:14

Unknown

You know what I mean? And yeah, like even characters who have been written as straight men who have, relationships with women, only and things like that, they’re still, you know, there’s still room for queerness and, yeah. Because these things, you know, like, they’re fluid. Yes. There’s no, like, rigid wall or barrier for, well, for the way that these things can be,

00:33:51:01 – 00:34:23:19

Unknown

No, it makes me think of, one of the things that’s sort of mentioned in the book, and is that, you have all the time in the world to keep discovering yourself like there’s one moment maybe like who you are in this moment. That doesn’t mean like your future self is not. And when we’re talking about essentially trying to find representation, when there when was very limited, in challenging heteronormativity, two people of opposite sex may not be straight.

00:34:23:19 – 00:34:43:09

Unknown

They could both be by people. One of them could be, pan. One of them could be. So I think that is part of looking that intersectionality is if we just automatically assume that they’re both straight people, where’s that assumption coming from and where, where, why is that being normalized in our head about, who these individuals are?

00:34:43:10 – 00:34:59:21

Unknown

Because nobody’s going on film going. I am a straight man, right? I like that is just not happening. So we could say any one of these characters in straight presenting relationships may still be in a very clear relationship.

00:34:59:21 – 00:35:16:17

Unknown

and you can have wear encounters and still identify as straight you know what I mean. Like these labels are self imposed. You know they’re not like while there are communal definitions for these things you know they’re self-imposed labels and you define your identity for yourself.

00:35:16:17 – 00:35:39:06

Unknown

No one else defines it for you. You know what I mean? Not to say that like whatever, like conversion therapy, it’s real or anything. But, you know, you can identify as straight and have dated men in the past and just realize, like, that’s just not my thing. Or you can love dating men and still identify as straight, you know what I mean?

00:35:39:08 – 00:36:04:21

Unknown

Like, I don’t know, they’re self-imposed labels that it’s just like, yeah, you know, you’re making me thinking of like, Lee Shang Lee Shang in a Mulan, right? Because he really, he really enjoyed playing. He really loved Mulan. Like the if we said that, he has to say whether he is straight or bi or gay. That doesn’t show the fact that he was just attracted to this person who he loved all their being.

00:36:04:21 – 00:36:46:01

Unknown

Yeah, well, and I think like one of the things people don’t think about in reality with like, queer labels are being queer is in the same way that you grow and understand yourself throughout life. You know, like how many times, you know, throughout life do you go like, oh, you know, just discovering something about yourself, right? It’s the same, you know, I, I think it was five years ago, maybe a little bit more that I discovered that I was demi sexual and I had no idea, like, what that meant or, you know, anything about it until a friend had mentioned it to me and it literally set off light bulbs like, oh my gosh, like

00:36:46:01 – 00:37:11:06

Unknown

how this affected my youth, how this affected everything. So there’s so much that you can grow and change and understand about yourself that can affect what your label or you know, how you identify. That’s like, why are we allowed to change how we describe ourselves, you know? Yeah. Would you be willing to educate our audience in case they have never heard of the term demi sexual?

00:37:11:08 – 00:37:45:11

Unknown

Yeah. Basically, I don’t want to give a strict definition for everyone. Because there’s obviously, a, I would say an arc of how people, identify as Demi when you come to Demi because it’s way, you know, but for in general, it means, you have to have a romantic or like, a personal connection, in order to have any sort of intimate activity.

00:37:45:13 – 00:38:08:14

Unknown

I think, you know, on that note, let’s kind of move and pivot a little bit into your personal journeys. Jodie, this is a great way to kind of foray into that because, we know your bio mentions that you found your true self through diverse stories and travels. How are these experiences, if there’s one that kind of comes to your mind first, shape your writing and advocacy work?

00:38:08:14 – 00:38:32:19

Unknown

And, on that note, what advice would you give to young LGBTQ plus individuals who are struggling with that self acceptance? So as far as, discovering myself, I grew up in a, like, conservative suburb of Los Angeles, and I went to a high school that, as far as I knew, there were only two other openly gay people there.

00:38:32:21 – 00:39:09:22

Unknown

So it’s not very like misunderstood in a lot of ways. I didn’t even really have a relationship with those people. Like, I kind of knew who they were, but, I never got to sit down and have a conversation with someone else who was clearly probably mid-twenties, maybe. So when I started traveling, not so much that I met people within my community, but that I could see what it was like in different communities, that I could see people who are different within their communities or different from my own community.

00:39:10:00 – 00:39:34:13

Unknown

It just really opened up, juxtaposed with books, by the way, like, you know, seeing that same thing in books that it was okay to be different, like it was okay and beautiful to be different, really. Like, you know, when I would travel somewhere, I would see these different, like, cultures or traditions or, you know, you name it and just think they were really cool.

00:39:34:13 – 00:39:56:01

Unknown

And that was cool that something else was different. Like it was okay to be different and know. What is your favorite place that you visited? The top three. Maybe if you can’t narrow it down to one place, like, like ever in my life. Yeah. I mean, what’s coming? What’s coming to mind now? You can always change your mind.

00:39:56:01 – 00:40:24:21

Unknown

And this is not definitive. Oh, no rush, I mean, I love I love traveling so much. I really loved going to Turkey. It was so different and so beautiful. Like, it was one of the first places, but I, like, fell in love with the food, like, because I’m, I’m always, like, scared because I’m allergic to a bunch of different things.

00:40:24:21 – 00:40:56:00

Unknown

But for some reason, everything was just right there. But, like, everybody was really nice there, and I don’t know, everything, like, just the culture and. Yeah, I also really loved Scotland. Gorgeous, really kind people, really intriguing. Like how they sort of mix, like old world cut culture and things. And, probably Japan, I really just loved.

00:40:56:00 – 00:41:23:13

Unknown

Oh, no, maybe China, I don’t know. Yeah. I’ve been to 30 countries. Got that over 30 snaps. Yeah. That’s so, but like, like seeing the Great Wall was like one of the most incredible experiences and seeing how, people in China, like, lived. That was like, different than how we lived and getting to witness those customs. And again, like, there’s, so many ancient buildings.

00:41:23:13 – 00:42:15:03

Unknown

And this juxtaposes and, like an ancient culture, with the modern culture and I don’t know, guys like, you know, so, so my answer is going to be different. Okay. That’s okay. As far as, advice that I would give, I would say, honestly, really getting to know yourself, like if you can explore yourself, like outside the noise and, basically explore the ways that, you know, you are you journal, you know, go to support groups if you have to or find like, good supportive friends and just really, like, find out who you are.

00:42:15:05 – 00:42:45:04

Unknown

Like, I think that would be my first, like, piece of advice. And then like affirmations and affirming that like basically then, you know, making sure that, you know, that that’s valuable, that that’s something that’s unique and beautiful and a gift and that you have a completely different way of viewing the world and a completely beautiful way of viewing the world and contributing to the world, and like finding everything around that to affirm yourself every day.

00:42:45:04 – 00:43:19:17

Unknown

Because we we all have moments of doubt. We all have moments of like questioning our our perfection and things like that. You know that. Like, you just have to, like, build this bubble of affirming yourself around yourself, framing yourself around yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because in your book you have rainbow affirmations after each section, that are specifically designed for queer teens to be able to celebrate themselves and, are specifically targeted to affirming that part of your identity, as well as how it intersects with your honor, other identities.

00:43:19:19 – 00:43:45:08

Unknown

And the interesting thing about affirmations is, like we tend to see them as very surface level. And so when you read them in the book, they are so impactful. They’re so intimate and internal. It really challenge is this idea that you’re just just talking noise or like, like faking it til you make it. It’s, really deep inside look, and it aligns with this belief that you’re sharing where it’s like, get to know yourself.

00:43:45:08 – 00:44:07:04

Unknown

It is okay to get to know yourself. It is okay to explore more of you if you have an affirmation, for instance, that you read that says, I, I’m trying to think of like something very I mean, even if it’s just like I live, laugh, love. Yeah. If it’s if it’s something like, you know, I am sparkly, right?

00:44:07:04 – 00:44:46:22

Unknown

And you’re not a smart person or I don’t that’s not like a real strong affirmation, but, it’s not going to resonate with you. Right? So like, that’s part of, you know, why we did like the sections and how we did the book, you know, and having voices from teens that you can look at and see, I identify with that or I relate to that, because then you can look at the affirmations that really speak to you, because you have to believe at least a small part of that affirmation, you know, to, to make it really work, you know, to really, get into your brain and be like, okay, this is going to

00:44:46:22 – 00:45:20:01

Unknown

have power with me. Yes, yes. Research has shown that, we as humans innately feel discomforted by lying to ourselves. And, and we have a negative bias. So we tend to. Which is weird because usually the negativity is a lie to ourselves. So it’s like these two opposing forces. And so when we speak in affirmation, it’s a lot easier to connect to it if we’re projecting on to a future self, if we don’t feel it right now, or if we add a buffer to it that makes it feel right now.

00:45:20:03 – 00:45:50:19

Unknown

And the wonderful thing about the affirmations in the books is there’s a variety of them. So you can choose and, and you’ve given the reader’s permission to adapt them. They don’t have to just stick to the language that was given. And I find in therapy sessions, when we’re trying to create affirmations, it really needs to be individualistic and has to be felt somewhere that this could be right or maybe right, versus it being spoken into right now if I don’t feel it, because I will reject that with all of my soul.

00:45:50:23 – 00:46:08:02

Unknown

Right. And whenever in the classroom you do an about me, if you say, how do you feel right now? More than likely, the kids are going to be like, I’m tired, I’m sleepy, I’m hungry. But if you say, you know how, how do you want to feel in a week? Or how do you want to feel when you’re in the next grade level?

00:46:08:02 – 00:46:30:23

Unknown

So it’s like, oh, I want to feel smarter or I want to feel more stronger, or I want to get better at kickball or something. So, you know, I mean, it is all true. Whenever you’re thinking of yourself in that present moment, it usually is pretty negative. But if you are thinking about yourself in the future, more than likely it’ll be a positive outcome of, yeah, one day those timelines will intersect.

00:46:31:01 – 00:46:56:22

Unknown

As we’ve seen from Loki, who I hear is also a queer icon. So there you go. Yes, one of my favorite. Shalom. Let’s move on to you. Tell us how you became connected with Jodi. I know that as we have been talking, I don’t know if it’s obvious to our readers, but, Sholem is quite younger than most of us here on the podcast, so, they have a very special, an interest in, you know, everything.

00:46:56:22 – 00:47:19:09

Unknown

And so, I just want to say, as I’m hearing you talk, I have so much hope because you are so insightful. And so, you know, just the way that you’re articulating things. Kudos to you. Because I just saw a lot of my middle schoolers in eighth grade graduate on. And I’ve known these kids since they were like in second, first grade.

00:47:19:09 – 00:47:28:09

Unknown

And I’m like, are you going to be okay? I think you’re going to be okay. But I don’t know if you’re going to be okay. But, you know, I, I have loved your input so far. So thank you.

00:47:28:09 – 00:47:37:07

Unknown

But anyway, going back to the subject matter, how did you and Jodi get connected?

00:47:37:09 – 00:48:05:08

Unknown

Well, my mom is also an author. And they’re both good friends, and, my mom has been, like, super cool with me being queer. And she’s always, like, known. I’m a I’m the type of person I kind of just do things. So I’ll be like, mom, I’m joining a coalition. He’s like, okay, cool. Like mom, I’m at a protest right now.

00:48:05:10 – 00:48:40:01

Unknown

She’s like, oh, okay, cool. And that’s just kind of how I am. But because, my mom knew that Jodi and Eric were writing Queer Cheer. She was like, hey, maybe it would be good to connect to you guys because, like, I’ve done a lot of work, just within the queer community. As a queer person, a lot of my understanding of, like, my identity has come from, like, researching queer theory, reading Judith Butler and Audre Lorde and, you know, learning about queer history and just getting involved in those communities.

00:48:40:03 – 00:49:09:22

Unknown

And my mom thought it would be a great opportunity, and it really I loved, meeting Jodi for the first time and having conversations about my experience as a queer person. And yeah, I’m just so grateful for this opportunity. So thank you again to, I’ve read some of your stories so far. So the way that the book is sort of designed, there’s snippets from different, teens of a variety of ages talking about their experience.

00:49:10:00 – 00:49:23:08

Unknown

I haven’t finished the book. I’m still reading it. I have used some sections with my clients already. And when I mentioned that you’d be on the podcast, they are very excited to hear you. So, you you have some hidden fans

00:49:23:08 – 00:49:38:14

Unknown

Yeah, it’s so I mean, when we, set out to find all of our teams, we basically, you know, we went through some of the people that we knew and then some of the like calling out between social media, between, you know, our community.

00:49:38:16 – 00:50:15:12

Unknown

And we had like, this goal to, find everyone from, you know, as many different identities as many different cultures, you know, like just trying to get as wide of a net as we could so that we could include as many voices as we could. And I mean, going into what you were saying, like every one of my conversations with these teens was like, I was crying, but it’s like it was just they’re all like, so much hope for the future and so insightful and incredible and, I mean, we were blown away.

00:50:15:14 – 00:50:46:05

Unknown

Yeah. They’re so smart. They’re so compassionate. So like beautiful, beautiful people. Like, it was incredible being like, that’s my favorite part of all of this is, is having met. Yeah. And I mean, I don’t remember being that wise sounding when I was that age. I think I was still trying to figure out how to pair, like a pair of jeans with, like, a top that would be appropriate for some kind of interview at like Jamba Juice or something.

00:50:46:05 – 00:51:11:06

Unknown

Like that’s where my mind was like, not, you know, this all encompassing, you know, how do we how do we look at ourselves? How do we, you know, give ourselves love? How do we project that with the circles that we have? How do we create change in the world using the power that we have? I think, you know, because the world has changed in the last 20 years, or maybe even the last 15 to 20 years.

00:51:11:08 – 00:51:34:21

Unknown

The the resources are endless. And I think it takes a certain amount of, smartness is not a word. It takes a certain amount of intelligence to navigate all of that with your devices, with, you know, what you can access, the people you can access. And, you know, just juggling all of that, you know, you guys really have the skills that we couldn’t even have imagined.

00:51:34:21 – 00:51:58:15

Unknown

If we had that at our fingertips at our age. Well, thank you, but it really does mean a lot. And yeah, I do think a large part of just my the things that I know and the things that I’m passionate about is just having access, to like, history, you know what I mean? Especially queer media. I talk about this in the book.

00:51:58:17 – 00:52:23:08

Unknown

I do, but, one of my favorite movies is this movie called punk, which came out in, I think, like 2001, and it’s one of the only, like, queer black blockbuster films. It’s like a B-list movie, but it’s one of my favorite movies ever because it shows queer blackness in a way that I had never seen before on film.

00:52:23:10 – 00:52:47:21

Unknown

And other movies like The Watermelon Woman by Cheryl Zanier amazing movie, but it also was one of the first times I ever saw, like, a black lesbian at the center of a movie. And the movie is about her experience as a black lesbian and the experiences of other black lesbians. And like, I don’t know, going back to, like the topic of Disney, an autobiographical stories.

00:52:47:23 – 00:53:08:04

Unknown

You know, sometimes we need a movie just about being gay, you know what I mean? I’d love a Disney movie just about being gay because, like, my life, like I am a person, you know, I do exist, as you know, someone who I don’t know, I love making music. I’m trying to write like a screenplay right now. Like I love doing things like that.

00:53:08:09 – 00:53:29:23

Unknown

But I’m also gay, you know what I mean? And being gay impacts every facet of my life and will for the rest of my time being alive. You know what I mean? And so does being black, and so does being a man. And like, you know, you can’t really separate those specific parts of my identity from my view of the world because I’ve been that way since the beginning.

00:53:30:01 – 00:53:33:20

Unknown

So I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah.

00:53:33:20 – 00:53:57:06

Unknown

shout out to the organizations in SFB, Filipino youth organizations like Pica, doing a lot of great work right now and occupy and SFB, they just started you’re doing some great work like, yeah, you know, the those communities also taught me a lot about myself and the importance of solidarity, and allyship.

00:53:57:06 – 00:54:27:17

Unknown

Yes. And like going back to Multifaith that identities but like how important solidarity and, and allyship are, when it comes to interacting with people who are multifaceted. And so, yeah, thank you Filipinos. Well, and speaking of like, allyship and, being an advocate, how would you describe being an ally, an advocate for the queer community? Like what would you need to see, from us to know that you this is a safe space.

00:54:27:17 – 00:54:54:11

Unknown

So this is an intentional, safe space. Well, I recently Margaret Cho, she’s, Yeah. You guys know Margaret, so. Yeah, she recently came to my school, and I had the opportunity to speak with her briefly. And. Yeah, she’s. And I love Margaret Cho. I have seen Fire Island. Yeah, I’ve seen Fire Island seven times.

00:54:54:11 – 00:55:13:19

Unknown

That’s one of your movies. You think of Fire Island, whereas for me, she had a show on, like ABC where it was like a family comedy of all Asians. And I was just like, oh my gosh, just a bunch of Asians on TV. Like, that’s crazy to me. But yes, she played a pivotal role in Fire Island as well.

00:55:13:21 – 00:55:33:19

Unknown

Yeah. But we talked about, you know, just like when you see, upcoming artists and storytellers within the queer community, make sure that you give them attention and make sure that you spotlight them, even though even if they’re not, like, the biggest thing, you know what I mean? Like chaperon, like a chaperon. I think that’s how you see her name.

00:55:33:21 – 00:56:01:06

Unknown

But, she’s upcoming queer artist. Amazing music. She’s so cool. Right? If you see this, shout out, you know, hey, you know, I’d love to produce something for you if you’re interested. You know what I mean? But. Yeah, but she’s great. I love her, and spotlighting queer artists. You know, queer storytellers is so important.

00:56:01:06 – 00:56:19:12

Unknown

Especially if they’re indie. Especially if they’re, you know, just starting out. Because we all deserve the chance to and the opportunity to share our voices. And I think that is the best way to be an ally is just try to uplift as many voices as you can, just like Jody is doing her book. So yeah.

00:56:19:12 – 00:56:45:00

Unknown

to be honest, I think the first, first thing is to listen, you know, like, just having people that are willing to hear, to listen to, you know, instead of trying to step for and do like, like, can I sit down with the Disney Disney CEO and like, be like, okay, let me let me explain what this means.

00:56:45:00 – 00:57:09:01

Unknown

You know, like, having like there’s, there’s corporations, for instance, that during pride, they slap a rainbow on something and they sell it, you know, and that there’s corporations that like, they hire queer artists and they, they put out, you know what? What is ours, you know, and and they I mean, pretty much Michel, said amplify our voices.

00:57:09:01 – 00:57:37:12

Unknown

You know, they they instead of trying to speak for us, they listen and they are just out there essentially, so that people can hear our stories so they can understand. And, get a little like a little bit of comprehension and maybe also some of that fear, like find, you know, those stories maybe, like Luca, where we can find some intersection of relatability.

00:57:37:14 – 00:58:00:12

Unknown

Yeah. What I’m hearing is, you know, not just not just listening, but actively listening, like listening with the purpose. Because if you’re just listening and you’re hearing it, it goes in and the actions don’t match that, that’s not actually listening. Like, just kind of like how, we have multiple cultural representations that are wanting to be more seen in Disney.

00:58:00:14 – 00:58:27:11

Unknown

Platforms. The same thing with queer stories. If you’re going to tell a queer stories, have a queer person tell those stories, have a queer person write those stories, have a queer person put pen to the animation on these stories, because all of those things will shine through. And looping back to what we were talking about earlier, there’s so many things that are more powerful when unsaid and just shown, because people will feel that when they’re watching a Disney movie.

00:58:27:11 – 00:58:40:09

Unknown

And I think we can all agree that at any point in our time when we watch a Disney movie, and we felt very strongly about something, that’s when the storytelling is at its best, because we feel it. We’re not being told,

00:58:40:09 – 00:58:47:18

Unknown

Yeah. I think that’s like that embodiment of the phrase not about us without us and more than one in the room.

00:58:47:20 – 00:59:05:18

Unknown

Right. We don’t want someone to be the token representation of a community. So you need more than one in a room and you don’t want to tell a story that isn’t your story. Because when you are viewing a story from an outside perspective, unfortunately, you’re going to project a stereotype. You’re going to get nuance wrong.

00:59:05:19 – 00:59:08:02

Unknown

You’re going to missed so many things.

00:59:08:02 – 00:59:38:23

Unknown

There’s going to be so many ways in which the depth is lost. And so that’s why you have to have someone in the room. But it can’t be that one. Someone. It has to be more of them. And the person who’s leading and helming the project, we’ve talked about this before on the podcast, but it’s it can’t just be the people on the camera, the people working behind the scenes, the people animating, the people who are on set, the costume designers, all of these individuals are pivotal in the storytelling.

00:59:39:01 – 01:00:05:00

Unknown

And when you don’t have them in those multiple spaces, what we have is, a very flat, onerous, unwell, received project, that’s going to be more harmful than helpful. And that’s why Mulan, the live action movie, was not okay. I’m sorry, I’ll say it, but that’s why. Yes, bad. There weren’t enough Asian people behind the scenes writing the story.

01:00:05:02 – 01:00:22:23

Unknown

And yeah, you know, it just it didn’t do well. Yeah, it had the facade of being something that like you would see in Chinese cinema, but when you watched it, it was the highlights were all in the preview. And I’m like, what I yeah, yeah. Yes.

01:00:22:23 – 01:00:36:21

Unknown

that’s like when we were we haven’t talked about on the podcast because it was very disappointing. But Raya, the last Dragon, is about 18 different countries. You’re going to have that many diverse communities shoved into one movie.

01:00:36:21 – 01:00:57:22

Unknown

You’re not going to have the right representation. Like, and it was it was sad. It was sad to be like, this could have been a Filipino character, but also not all that to say, Jodie, can you tell us where to find your book? So for our listeners who are wanting to read it, I know we’ve talked a lot about it probably piqued a lot of folks interest in it.

01:00:57:22 – 01:01:37:21

Unknown

Where can we find it? Yeah, sure. So you can find it anywhere. In any major book retailer such as Amazon, Barnes Noble, your local indie bookstore, hopefully your library. We have a, like, a request. If you don’t find it at your library, please request it. Because one of the things that’s really important to us is that anyone who cannot afford this book, that they have the opportunity, the chance to get it any way that they can, but if you’re looking for a quick, easy reference, w w w we’re chair book.com.

01:01:37:23 – 01:01:56:16

Unknown

There’s lots of easy, quick buy links and reviews and all kinds of, cool resources as well. For any teens that are looking for parents or guardians between that are looking for, resources in just about anything in your life. Awesome. And shalom,

01:01:56:16 – 01:01:57:03

Unknown

Yeah.

01:01:57:03 – 01:02:28:14

Unknown

So I have a SoundCloud. I go by Voi Venus on SoundCloud. I make electronic music. Any of you listeners, if you are looking to make any indie video games or any film projects, I would love to score for you. I yeah, I love doing game scoring as well as film scoring. And also, I’m looking to finish a screenplay that I’m writing this summer, about three kids.

01:02:28:14 – 01:02:49:01

Unknown

So superpowers from space. And they’re an indie band together. It’s very Scott Pilgrim meets Steven Universe. Ask so yeah, again, boy violence on SoundCloud. I’m going to put my email on there in case any of you want to hit me up, but yeah. Yeah, that’s me

01:02:49:01 – 01:03:00:18

Unknown

All right. Okay, well, if you want to, DM us and let us know what you will be doing for this pride, go ahead at happiest Pod GT.

01:03:00:20 – 01:03:12:18

Unknown

You can find us both on IG and X. We want to thank our guests for joining us today. This was a wonderful conversation. And please support queer artists and queer work and let Disney know that

Media/Characters Mentioned
  • Ariel and Eric (The Little Mermaid)
  • Ursula
  • Elsa (Frozen)
  • Luca & Alberto
  • Merida (Brave)
  • Moana
  • Lee Shang (Mulan)
  • Peter Parker (Spider-Man)
  • Clarabelle & Donald (Pride Night looks)
  • Fire Island, Out (Pixar), Queer Cheer (book)
Topics/Themes Mentioned
  • Queer coding
  • Identity formation
  • Affirmations
  • Intersectionality
  • Disney villains
  • Chosen family
  • Representation vs tokenism
  • Allyship & advocacy
  • Pride events
  • Cultural storytelling
  • Diaspora & queerness
  • Disney’s capitalism/activism tightrope

🎤 Jodie Anders — Co-author of Queer Cheer, youth mentor, podcast host
👉 Learn more and access resources at: www.QueerCheerBook.com
🎤 Shalom (Boy Venus) — Queer student leader, activist, musician, electronic artist
🎧 Music by Shalom (Boy Venus): SoundCloud

Website: happy.geektherapy.com
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Dynamic Disabilities: From Accommodations to Accessibility

June 11, 2024 · Discuss on the GT Forum

https://media.blubrry.com/happypod/media.transistor.fm/c1c82fe5/ddfdcae2.mp3

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43: Ariel, Stef, and return guest Maria delve into the intricacies of hosting a play therapy conference at Disneyland, focusing on accommodations for dynamic disabilities. They discuss the unique challenges and rewards of planning such an event in a magical setting. They emphasize the importance of inclusivity, accommodations, and the evolving nature of disability services at Disney. They also explore the distinctions between ask culture and guess culture, the impact of ableist assumptions, and practical strategies for integrating play-based interventions for disabled children and adults.

Register for the “Play Therapy: Disney Bound” taking place at Disneyland and the Disneyland Hotel from March 10th-15th, 2025 here:

https://www.anewhopetc.org/playatdisneyland

Register for the “The Supportive Innovations for Therapeutic Heroes Conference (S.I.T.H.)” taking place at Las Cruces Convention Center, New Mexico from September 26th-28th, 2024 here:

https://www.anewhopetc.org/sith

Summary

Summary of HPOE 43:

  • Introduction and Terminology (0:00): Ariel, Stef, and Maria introduce Episode 43 and define the key terms of ableism, DEIB, and dynamic disabilities to prepare listeners for the discussion.
  • Meet the Hosts & Guest (1:26): Ariel, Stef, and Maria introduce themselves and discuss their professional backgrounds.
  • Maria’s Inspiration and Conference Challenges (2:53): Maria shares her inspiration for choosing Disneyland as the venue for her play therapy conference. She discusses the unique challenges and rewards of planning an event in a magical setting.
  • Ask Culture vs. Guess Culture (10:01)” The conversation shifts to the importance of asking questions in personal and professional contexts. The trio explores the concepts of ask culture and guess culture and their impacts on event planning.
  • Dynamic Disabilities and Accommodations (16:58): Maria explains the concept of dynamic disabilities and their fluctuating nature. The group discusses the importance of accommodations and the evolving policies of Disney’s Disability Access Service (DAS).
  • Disney’s DAS Program and Challenges (21:21): The discussion delves into recent changes to Disney’s DAS program, including the new pre-registration process and the impact of these changes on visitors with disabilities.
  • Play-Based Interventions (41:03): The hosts discuss play-based interventions for individuals with disabilities, highlighting the importance of creating inclusive play environments catering to children and adults.
  • Hosting at Disneyland: Tips and Reflections (47:49): Maria shares practical advice on hosting events at Disneyland, emphasizing early planning and clear communication. She reflects on the success of her play therapy conference and announces details for the next event.
  • Closing Thoughts and Future Plans (51:59): The episode concludes with reflections on the discussed topics, the importance of continuing advocacy for disability rights, and excitement for future events and conferences.
Transcription

00:00 – 00:02
Is episode 43 of happiest pot on earth.

00:02 – 00:09
On this episode, we are going to be using some, very specific terminology that we would like to define for you ahead of time

00:09 – 00:13
so when you listen you can feel more prepared. The first term is ableism.

00:13 – 00:22
Ableism is the discrimination of and social prejudice against people with disabilities based on the belief that typical abilities are superior.

00:23 – 00:29
At its heart, ableism is rooted in the assumption that disabled people require fixing and defines people by their disability.

00:30 – 00:38
The second term is diversity. Diversity simply means the differences between people, and equity is about securing everyone’s

00:38 – 00:40
access to the same opportunities and resources.

00:41 – 00:47
Inclusion, which is another term that we use, creates a welcoming and respectful environment, and belonging is the feeling

00:47 – 00:50
of being accepted and part of a community.

00:50 – 00:58
Another term is dynamic disability. A dynamic disability is a condition or impairment that can change in severity and impact over time.

00:59 – 01:05
This can include periods of remission or exasperation or symptoms that fluctuate throughout the day.

01:05 – 01:12
People with dynamic disabilities may experience good days, bad days that are unpredictable, which can make it difficult to

01:12 – 01:14
manage their symptoms and plan for the future.

01:26 – 01:29
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the happiest pod on Earth. I’m Steph.

01:29 – 01:35
I’m an educator who uses passions and fandoms to help my students grow and learn about themselves and the world around them.

01:35 – 01:42
And I’m Ariel, a licensed therapist who uses clients’ passions and fandoms to help them grow and heal from trauma and mental illness.

01:42 – 01:49
I’m Maria. I’m a marriage and family therapist and a registered play therapist who pulls from pop culture to normalized mental health and therapy.

01:49 – 01:53
And here at Happiest Pod, we dissect Disney mediums with a critical lens. Why?

01:53 – 01:56
Because we are more than just fans and we expect more from the mediums we consume.

01:57 – 01:58
So everybody, what are we talking about today?

01:59 – 02:08
Well, we have a very special guest on our podcast today, an old friend, I guess you can say, because we have had her on our podcast before.

02:08 – 02:15
We have Maria who is, a wonderful person, human being, and very talented in what she does.

02:15 – 02:22
I am in awe of everything, that she has accomplished, and, I had so much fun the last time I saw her because the last time

02:22 – 02:26
I we saw her was at the parks. So Yeah. Yeah.

02:26 – 02:33
Yeah. Thank you guys so much for having me back, and thanks for coming and playing with me at Disney.

02:33 – 02:35
I mean, there’s no there’s no better work day than

02:35 – 02:36
a day at Disney.

02:36 – 02:39
You really have to pull our hair to, like, go there.

02:39 – 02:44
We’re just like, I don’t know about this one. That’s such a big ask. Oh, good. Ask.

02:44 – 02:46
I had to leave work. Oh my goodness.

02:46 – 02:53
So, Maria, I’m curious. What inspired you to choose Disneyland as the venue of your play therapy conference?

02:53 – 03:00
And were there any unique challenges and rewards that you encountered in having the magical place be the location

03:00 – 03:11
of your conference? Sure. I mean, when we think about play, and the 3 of us being, Disney adults, fan adults, I mean, there’s

03:11 – 03:15
really not a better place than the parks to go and play. Right?

03:16 – 03:24
And so really the the idea behind the conference was how do I integrate play back into the learning? I’m old.

03:24 – 03:30
I used to attend conferences when they were fun. That stopped happening.

03:30 – 03:37
You know, and prior to the pandemic, and then since we’ve been back trying to do, like, learning in person again, I learn

03:37 – 03:40
best when I am fully, like, in it.

03:40 – 03:45
And nothing nothing completely captures my attention than anything Disney touches.

03:46 – 03:49
So, it was just it was a wild dream. It really was.

03:49 – 03:53
It was just kind of a, I wonder if this had ever happened.

03:54 – 03:55
And I was just like, well, what’s the

03:55 – 03:58
worst that’s gonna happen? Right? Like, we’re gonna put it out there.

03:58 – 04:02
Like, the worst day of this is still like a good day at Disney.

04:02 – 04:11
I mean, that’s a pretty safe that’s a pretty safe low bar for me to try it out with. Absolutely. Yeah. And so, like, it’s interesting.

04:11 – 04:14
So, I mean, I’ve done event planning before.

04:14 – 04:16
I do host a conference here in my hometown.

04:16 – 04:22
You you do kind of get to know the ins and outs of event hosting, and then there’s Disney. And then

04:22 – 04:31
there is Disney. Okay, so did they have challenges that they threw your way that you hadn’t experienced in your current experience of event hosting?

04:32 – 04:35
Not, not as many as I had anticipated, right?

04:35 – 04:42
I kind of went in thinking I’m a small, small little minnow fish in a very big pond. Right?

04:42 – 04:49
People who think about Disney events think, you know, big, huge corporation events. I am not that.

04:50 – 04:56
So I I think I went in with the anticipation that I was going to be kind of like, that’s cute.

04:56 – 04:59
He would like to do this, but like, maybe not.

05:00 – 05:02
And that wasn’t the case at all, right?

05:02 – 05:08
They were just, my event was just as important at, like, as, like, the next event coming in.

05:08 – 05:11
That was probably 10 times the size of our event.

05:12 – 05:20
I did not feel, yeah, I did not feel like we were patronized, we were not, you know, set aside, and they, I mean, it’s Disney.

05:21 – 05:26
I I had such a surreal experience of, like, rolling up to the hotel and taking my bags out.

05:26 – 05:35
I’m gonna go check-in, and I’m actually met at front door of someone who knows who I am and, like, walks me to my room, take

05:35 – 05:40
has my bags carried to my room for me, gone through, and, like, here’s a personal number.

05:40 – 05:47
If you need anything, you text this number, and we will respond to you. I was like, oh. Oh my goodness. Oh, okay. Okay.

05:47 – 05:49
Like, you know there’s just 30 of us. Right?

05:49 – 05:51
Like, this is not like a big, big thing.

05:52 – 05:54
You must have me confused or something.

05:54 – 05:55
I know. I know.

05:55 – 05:59
It’s serious. Like, talk about imposter syndrome. I’m sitting here. Me?

05:59 – 06:00
Is it for

06:00 – 06:10
me? Okay. So, no. I I think I think if anything, Disney was a venue that really surpassed my expectations, even even if it was Disney.

06:11 – 06:17
And they really did, unlike some of my local venues, they really did care about my, my event.

06:17 – 06:21
And the number did not seem to matter to them at all.

06:21 – 06:24
Every event there is important and special.

06:24 – 06:27
I love that. That’s like, that’s Disney magic right there. Right?

06:28 – 06:35
And I mean, I remember staying at the Grand Californian and being chosen as like family of the day.

06:35 – 06:36
I did not have kids at that point.

06:37 – 06:42
It was like me and my husband, and they chose us because we were staying there and it was our anniversary.

06:42 – 06:44
And I was like, are you sure?

06:44 – 06:48
It was the imposter syndrome thinking, are you do you have the right people?

06:48 – 06:53
Because we scrimped and saved to get these rooms because they were a pretty penny.

06:53 – 07:01
But yet you are giving me an autograph picture of Mickey and Minnie and, like, you, personalize, you know, all of our items inside the hotel room.

07:01 – 07:10
I think that’s just those little details that make honestly, make it worth it going and choosing them as a venue or choosing

07:10 – 07:17
them as a place to celebrate something, which, in this case, not much a celebration, but more of a learning experience, which

07:17 – 07:20
I think is very unique to use that as a venue.

07:20 – 07:26
I am, I guess you can say experience in doing event planning as well since I do it a lot for my school sites.

07:27 – 07:34
And I totally understand the just the struggle of finding a venue that will work with you and will have things prepared for you.

07:35 – 07:43
From the little time that I was there, at the play therapy conference, you had amazing servers who were just as charming as

07:43 – 07:51
the cast members in the parks, if not more, because, you know, they were interacting with you and making sure you had everything while you were hosting.

07:51 – 07:54
It was so charming and, you know, pixie dust everywhere.

07:54 – 07:59
If I could, you know, make a tangible, analogy to that.

07:59 – 08:07
But, on that note, for listeners who might be interested in hosting their own events at Disneyland, do you have any key do’s or don’ts?

08:07 – 08:09
Did you encounter anything that you were like, okay.

08:09 – 08:19
Maybe I don’t go this route, especially since you did more of a hybrid hotel plus downtown Disney plus park experience because

08:19 – 08:23
those are very big logistical things to juggle.

08:23 – 08:27
So, you know, if you can kind of just give our listeners some tips on that.

08:27 – 08:33
Yeah. Absolutely. Start early. Start early. Yes.

08:33 – 08:41
I mean, the the contracting process, right, like, there’s a process, and Disney has so many options for you to, like, choose. Right?

08:41 – 08:46
So going in blind for the first time, I didn’t know what all my options were. Rain.

08:46 – 08:52
You’re like, I want to do an event, and I have about this many people, and we’re gonna need hotel rooms, and I want park tickets. And I was like, cool.

08:52 – 08:58
Would you also like and it’s like, you know, Ladens’ genie is like rolling out the transcript of possible wishes.

08:58 – 09:00
I was like, would you also like any of these options?

09:01 – 09:08
So our last one, definitely felt very rushed at the end trying to get everything.

09:09 – 09:15
I have my new contract already signed now for next year. So start early, and ask ask.

09:16 – 09:22
My, my favorite thing was in meeting with Deb who was my connection for contracting, you know, she’s like, well tell me what

09:22 – 09:27
you would like, and then my, I would answer her back and go, what else should I be asking for?

09:28 – 09:30
What else are their options for me?

09:30 – 09:31
Beautiful question.

09:32 – 09:35
Yeah. Because they’re gonna tell you. Right?

09:35 – 09:37
This is this is what they do day in and day out.

09:37 – 09:45
So don’t limit yourself to what you think is possible because it’s Disney. Right? They’re gonna it’s it’s the TARDIS. It’s bigger on the inside.

09:45 – 09:49
As soon as you open the door, you have so many more options.

09:50 – 09:57
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s really interesting because recently there’s been this this trend or this theme in some of my sessions

09:57 – 10:01
where we talk about the difference between ask culture and guest culture.

10:01 – 10:03
Have you heard of this? Oh, interesting. No.

10:04 – 10:05
I agree.

10:05 – 10:05
Now that you say it.

10:05 – 10:06
You’ve there you go.

10:06 – 10:08
I mean, it it’s it’s making sense.

10:09 – 10:16
Yeah. Yeah. So, some people who have been raised in guest culture, and usually the demographics of individuals raised in this

10:16 – 10:21
culture are people in collectivist cultures or lower socioeconomic status Mhmm.

10:21 – 10:26
Or had, households where, we had to guess emotions.

10:26 – 10:31
So what that does is that means that we guess the answer.

10:31 – 10:36
So I won’t ask my friend to take me to the airport if I don’t think that they’ll say yes.

10:37 – 10:43
Or I won’t, ask my parents if I can spend the night at someone’s house if I think they’re in a bad mood.

10:43 – 10:44
That’s the one.

10:45 – 10:45
Okay.

10:46 – 10:56
And people who have been raised in ask culture, they don’t even socialize to believe that, someone will say no, then it’s not a burden to even ask. Mhmm.

10:56 – 11:03
And that, when they’re saying yes, it’s because that they they genuinely have thought about it.

11:03 – 11:05
You don’t have to think about it for them.

11:05 – 11:06
Okay, interesting.

11:06 – 11:13
And so I could see myself as someone who was raised in guest culture because I was, you know, in a lower socioeconomic status

11:13 – 11:21
with just 1 parent household to 1 income household and, you know, living in a collectivist culture, like, ‘Okay, I believe Disney will say yes to this.

11:21 – 11:25
So I will only ask this and nothing more.

11:25 – 11:32
And here you are giving us a question that someone who’s in guest culture could use. What should I be asking? Right?

11:32 – 11:35
Because, I mean, the assumption is that they’ll answer that question.

11:35 – 11:38
But it isn’t a big ask of an ask.

11:39 – 11:49
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly what. And that, you know, I I would say I probably did not, I did not come from a guest culture background.

11:49 – 11:58
And only owning my privilege and owning that I am a white cishetero presenting female, that a lot of assumptions are made. Right?

11:58 – 12:03
And so I’m still very new at this part of my professional career.

12:04 – 12:13
I don’t know these answers, even though I can say, you know, I’ve planned, you know, 15 local events in my lifetime. Disney’s another level.

12:13 – 12:16
And each time I do something, right, we learn.

12:16 – 12:23
And one of the things I quickly learned was they know more than you know, and they don’t know what I don’t know.

12:24 – 12:24
Right.

12:24 – 12:30
So just ask them. Just ask them. Like, what should I be asking? What should I know about?

12:30 – 12:32
What are the options that maybe I have not considered?

12:33 – 12:41
And that’s true for event planning, that’s true for almost any experience when you go in novously and kind of renew. Right?

12:41 – 12:47
Whether that’s, being invited to write an article, whether that’s being invited to come to a podcast. Right?

12:47 – 12:50
Like, what, what should I be asking?

12:50 – 12:53
What don’t I know that you think maybe I should know?

12:53 – 12:54
What, what do I need to know?

12:54 – 12:56
What, what have I not been informed about?

12:56 – 13:03
I think that is a wonderful way to step into curiosity and says that you don’t have to know.

13:03 – 13:06
And I think that even keys back to like that imposter syndrome.

13:06 – 13:13
Like we feel like, again, we should know that guessing, I probably should already be at this level to even be allowed.

13:13 – 13:21
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Like who, what audacity did I have to think that I could pull off an event planning at Disney?

13:23 – 13:30
Right, I was like no, like and like what’s the worst that’s gonna happen? Right?

13:30 – 13:35
If we don’t ask, I’m gonna miss out, and the people coming are gonna miss out.

13:35 – 13:39
The worst that’s gonna happen is they’re gonna tell me, oh Maria, that’s that’s too far.

13:39 – 13:41
No, that’s not that’s not a possibility.

13:41 – 13:42
So it’s too close to the sun.

13:42 – 13:48
Right? Yeah. Absolutely. And contracting with them again for this next one, I already had.

13:48 – 13:52
So here’s my next question, like, list of questions now that I’ve done it once. Right?

13:53 – 13:58
I was wondering if these things are possible, and and some of them are like, yeah. Absolutely.

13:58 – 14:01
And others were like, oh, we’ve never had that question asked before.

14:02 – 14:07
Let me go look into it and maybe it’s a no, but maybe it’s a yes.

14:07 – 14:15
Yeah. Why not ask? I think as you were both were talking, when we’re thinking of Disneyland and Play, we always talk about

14:15 – 14:17
how we’re going back to our childhood, right?

14:17 – 14:23
And when I’m thinking about younger kids versus older kids in, like, middle school, when you’re in a class full of younger

14:23 – 14:29
kids, you’re constantly getting questions, rapid fire questions because they won’t stop. They’re curious about everything.

14:30 – 14:36
But if you realize as you get into upper education, the questions lessen because everyone’s too shy, or they’re just trying

14:36 – 14:38
to guess, or they already have their presumptions.

14:38 – 14:46
And so I think it’s very interesting that we’re kind of going back into play and thinking of play and thinking like a child and saying, hey.

14:46 – 14:54
If I were a 6 year old wanting to play at the parks, and they have one goal is to do play at the parks with their friends,

14:54 – 14:59
they would ask the questions necessary in order to make that happen. Where can I play?

14:59 – 15:01
I mean, even not even what would I wear?

15:01 – 15:03
I don’t think a 6 year old would ask what would I wear?

15:03 – 15:05
I’m just gonna wear whatever I want to wear. But

15:05 – 15:09
But I think like, like, when I see 6 year olds, can I touch that?

15:09 – 15:12
And it’s like, as an adult, it’s like, no, don’t even ask. But it’s

15:12 – 15:13
like, maybe.

15:15 – 15:19
Yeah. Can I climb that? Or my body is asking you because I’m already doing it.

15:19 – 15:23
So are you gonna tell me no, or you’re just gonna let me do this?

15:23 – 15:25
So, yeah, I think it’s really interesting.

15:25 – 15:31
You know, as we get older, we ask less questions because we are so much more presumptuous as to what the answer is.

15:31 – 15:37
But in reality, we can ask the more complex questions to get a more direct answer.

15:38 – 15:42
So it’s kind of just doing that little switch, and it’ll benefit us.

15:42 – 15:47
I mean, look at what fruitful things came from the play therapy conference.

15:47 – 15:53
I mean, everybody I met was just having the time of their lives, and it was so great. I loved it.

15:53 – 16:01
I think going back to like, why we don’t ask the questions, I think there also is this, like, I’m supposed to already know, Right?

16:01 – 16:06
Like, if I reach out to Disney to host an event there, I should already somehow magically know

16:06 – 16:06
Yeah.

16:07 – 16:11
All the ins and outs and pieces. And how to right?

16:11 – 16:17
And, like, how to read how to read a 68 page contract and know what I am signing my life way to.

16:17 – 16:23
And so being able to be very vulnerable and open and being like, this is a giant leap for me.

16:24 – 16:27
Can we kind of talk through these things?

16:27 – 16:35
Here are the questions I have, but also, like, what am I not asking that maybe, like, the other players who’ve done this before have asked and was helpful?

16:35 – 16:46
With the and shifting just a little bit, you have on the new form, and you did in the original form for people who are signing up, request for accommodations.

16:47 – 16:50
And I know that you’re doing a presentation in Virginia on dynamic disabilities.

16:50 – 16:58
So I was wondering if you could talk about accommodations, disabilities, and what that was like for with Disney, like for the conference. Sure. Yeah.

16:58 – 17:01
Yeah, absolutely. I’m happy you talked about this.

17:01 – 17:08
I will share my definition and kind of use of the term dynamic disabilities, and we can kind of go from there.

17:08 – 17:20
So I use the term dynamic disabilities really to be an umbrella term of, health issues, mental health, physical health issues that are often invisible.

17:20 – 17:26
So there’s not like a visible outward sign. The dynamic piece comes from it. It fluctuates.

17:26 – 17:33
The impact, the intensity, my ability to function fluctuates without cause or without notice.

17:33 – 17:42
When it comes to a dynamic disability, I think, there’s a lot of management and there are, like, some days that are good and some days that are bad.

17:42 – 17:47
And, it is not a consistent experience.

17:47 – 17:55
And for those who have never had a disability or been disabled, sometimes the way that media presents a disability is it’s fixed.

17:56 – 17:59
It’s like one way of experiencing every single day.

18:00 – 18:03
And they don’t see a spectrum of experiences.

18:04 – 18:13
And so I think the other component with the dynamic is that, the individual themselves may not be able to predict, like, if

18:13 – 18:19
it’s, quote, unquote, a good day or a bad day, what accommodations I might need, today versus tomorrow.

18:19 – 18:29
Something else that the audience, could be aware of is, when it comes to disabilities, some people will use person first language. Some people use identity first language.

18:29 – 18:35
And so person first would be someone with a disability, because we’re putting them in front of the sentence.

18:36 – 18:41
Although some of the community has identified their disability as an identity and Mhmm.

18:41 – 18:48
Would prefer to be identified as disabled or, or by their actual disability.

18:48 – 18:55
Now, that as clinicians and I think even Stef as educators, we let the person tell us, like, which they prefer to use. Mhmm.

18:56 – 19:03
Yeah. And I think using the word dynamic is more in tune with how we live day to day, whether or not you are dealing with a disability.

19:03 – 19:05
Because not every single day is the same.

19:06 – 19:11
Not every single day we’re, waking up the same way, approaching things the same way as before.

19:11 – 19:13
We can try to get close to that.

19:13 – 19:22
But as dynamic people who are unlearning, learning things, constantly, it’s I feel more in tune to what real life is as opposed

19:22 – 19:27
to like what Ariel says, what what is projected to us through, you know, pop culture and how they portray disabilities.

19:28 – 19:33
Yeah. Absolutely. Or just the expectation that if you can do it once, you can do it every day here on out. Right?

19:33 – 19:40
And it’s like, well, that’s not real life. We’re not still art. Yeah.

19:40 – 19:44
You know, I could have could have had a rough day the day before, a bad night’s sleep the night before. Right?

19:44 – 19:48
Like, in general, I think we all live dynamic lives, and

19:48 – 19:49
it is just a nice way to

19:49 – 19:58
kind of view that. With dynamic disabilities, you know, it’s, it is becoming, at least for me, it’s becoming a real focus

19:58 – 20:04
of presenting, talking about, educating people about, I live with my own.

20:05 – 20:11
I work with wonderful professionals who are working with their own, and we are trying to navigate the systems, the best we

20:11 – 20:18
can while while while looking fine, even on some of our worst days.

20:19 – 20:19
Yeah.

20:20 – 20:28
So, yeah, so I it’s very intentional that my registration form has, you know, do you have any of these accommodations? Yes.

20:28 – 20:34
Participants could easily reach out to the Disneyland Hotel themselves and say, here, here’s what I need. Here are the accommodations. What are my options?

20:35 – 20:41
And part of my hostess persona says, I also want to know. Right?

20:41 – 20:48
Because if you made those accommodations on on the side and I’m not looped in, then I can’t also be on the lookout and and

20:48 – 20:52
making my own accommodations for you, and just being prepared.

20:53 – 21:01
Yeah. For for those things. And that’s the communication piece that is, you know, hyper focused on when you are hosting because

21:01 – 21:06
you are constantly communicating with every single person, making sure they’re okay, and that’s a really big undertaking.

21:07 – 21:14
But speaking of constants and people wanting to view a certain way or having parameters that are set, I know recently, there

21:14 – 21:21
has been changes to the Disney’s disability Access Services at Disneyland. It’s a very sticky situation.

21:21 – 21:28
I think, you know, speaking for myself and looking at it as a person that doesn’t need these accommodations, And for the folks,

21:28 – 21:37
who use acronyms, this is the DOS system that, folks with disabilities use to access the parks and enjoy their day in a way that suits them.

21:38 – 21:41
And I guess it’s a question for both, you know, Maria and Ariel as clinicians.

21:42 – 21:46
How do you think these changes have impacted visitors, have been impacting visitors?

21:47 – 21:56
And, just seeing how it is already a big undertaking to be at a very busy theme park with a lot of moving parts.

21:57 – 22:01
How do you think it affects them and even future conference attendees for you, Maria?

22:01 – 22:03
I love that. Ariel, do you wanna

22:03 – 22:07
go? No. You go ahead first. You’re our guest. Be our guest.

22:09 – 22:13
I think I think that it’s I think it’s going to continue to move. Right?

22:13 – 22:20
Like, I don’t have a full understanding that this is where it’s going to land and be permanently, you know, the new system and the new restrictions.

22:21 – 22:27
I also think it’s a really big undertaking for an organization like Disney to have to, like, navigate all of this. Right?

22:28 – 22:39
Because they do really make efforts to to put comfort and people access first, and sometimes, they have to draw a line in

22:39 – 22:44
the sand and that that then it means an exclusionary criteria. Right?

22:44 – 22:52
But if you do not have these things, do do not show up in this way, then these accommodations are not easily accessible or even available to you any longer.

22:52 – 22:59
So my own, I am definitely watching, trying to keep a pulse, trying to really understand, like, what these new limitations

23:00 – 23:08
are going to translate for, and also trying to look at it from my own perspective of, like, that that may even I I am not

23:08 – 23:18
I did not participate in the DOS, services before, but I was being kind of told, like, you should kind of consider this with your with your own physical stuff.

23:18 – 23:21
Like, this might be really, really beneficial to you.

23:21 – 23:27
And so to just start like that process and for it to then immediately change and like, oh, I don’t think I know, I don’t think

23:27 – 23:33
I qualify any longer based on these new limitations, and restrictions, and requirements.

23:35 – 23:43
So right now, I’m still in the learning, learning the new dance, so to speak, and then being able to get an understanding

23:43 – 23:49
so that I can then translate it to people who are coming and who might have questions about what the new restrictions and limitations are.

23:50 – 23:55
Yeah. I think you point out something very important. This is changing. It is evolving.

23:55 – 24:04
So, even by the release of probably this episode, there may be new updates but what we do know is that Disney did release,

24:04 – 24:08
well, first that it the new, criteria started in May.

24:09 – 24:17
And that Disney released a list of, like, diagnoses that they, I guess, felt were more that needed more of the accommodation of the DOS program.

24:17 – 24:21
And, those diagnoses were ADHD, anxiety and autism.

24:21 – 24:30
So the community had already, been on the alert because, of the fact that it was like these and these only.

24:30 – 24:34
Then they they specifically said developmental or cognitive disabilities.

24:35 – 24:40
And that then would exclude individuals who need accommodations that are physical.

24:41 – 24:48
And then as things started rolling out, it was the fact that there was a pre registration process, and you have to do it 30 days before your visit.

24:48 – 24:54
They are no longer allowing, I think, in June for people to go into the city hall

24:54 – 24:55
to have the conversation. Okay.

24:56 – 25:03
So, that means that you have to have a plan to attend, later.

25:03 – 25:09
And if you are somebody who’s a magic key holder that could go anytime, you would have had to already have this set up.

25:09 – 25:12
The the praises are that it has extended

25:12 – 25:14
the amount of of having

25:14 – 25:17
it. Instead of 60 days, it’s 120 days. Right?

25:17 – 25:25
Once you if you are approved, the and that, there is more scrutiny happening because what the result of this was backlash

25:26 – 25:34
to influencers saying like, Hey, if you don’t want to pay for Genie plus and you want to skip the line, here’s the things you need to say. And

25:34 – 25:35
the hacks, essentially.

25:36 – 25:44
The hacks as it was presented, which meant that it adversely affected people who needed accommodation because of a disability.

25:44 – 25:52
Other things that have been, like, criticisms are the fact that, they are encouraging more people to use, like, someone to

25:52 – 25:54
hold a spot in line and you leave and return. Mhmm.

25:55 – 25:59
And if you are somebody who’s a wheelchair user, your spot in line might not be reversible.

25:59 – 26:05
You might not be able to back your wheelchair through or like with people standing there, right?

26:05 – 26:10
So there needs to be a space for your chair to go backwards or or whip around.

26:10 – 26:17
So that would need to be wide enough space as well as move through lines of people. Yeah.

26:17 – 26:26
And, other criticisms like people have already been sharing their stories where if they’re taking medication, for specifically

26:26 – 26:32
those who are experiencing cancer, if they’re taking medication that causes, like, a diuretic and they need to use the bathroom

26:32 – 26:42
repeatedly, having to leave their spot in line and find the bathroom maybe further away than if they had not had to be in the queue.

26:42 – 26:52
So where it pertains to me, because I have been using the DOS program, is that mine ended on, May 4th. Interesting.

26:53 – 26:55
Why would you have to end it on a day that

26:55 – 26:56
mattered to me? But okay, thanks.

26:56 – 27:07
And I have tried at least 5 times to get into the virtual queue to do my interview. The ads has cut out. It has the call has dropped.

27:07 – 27:10
I’ve never seen anyone on the video. Never.

27:10 – 27:15
All the calls are being transferred, I think, to, Florida representatives at Walt Disney World.

27:15 – 27:17
So, like, Disneyland doesn’t have their own.

27:17 – 27:26
And when they had changed the accommodations at Universal Studios, they had asked that you, like, upload documentation.

27:26 – 27:33
And so I did add my doctor upload documentation that requested my accommodations, and their system was clunky, and there’s,

27:33 – 27:34
like, a number you’re supposed to get.

27:34 – 27:37
It took a couple months, but, you know, now it’s good.

27:37 – 27:40
Disney will not take any doctor’s notes.

27:40 – 27:45
They will not take any, and it’s already hard to get a doctor note, but they won’t take any of that. It’s in the interview.

27:46 – 27:52
And the way that they ask the questions, they will they will say things like, well, if you get hot, you should get an ice

27:52 – 27:54
pack or you should get a cooling rag.

27:54 – 27:59
If you, need to use the bathroom repeatedly, you should just leave the line and come back.

27:59 – 28:02
Tell the person at the front that, you know, you’re leaving to do that.

28:02 – 28:04
And they’re trying to create a ticket system,

28:05 – 28:05
but

28:05 – 28:12
that hasn’t been fully implemented. So now hearing this and knowing dynamic disabilities, are you seeing where the clunkiness Yeah.

28:13 – 28:16
When Disney was the gold standard for accommodations? Yeah.

28:16 – 28:22
Yeah. Yeah. What a what a significant difference. Right?

28:22 – 28:26
I mean, you were sharing all that, and I was like, have they been to a park recently?

28:26 – 28:33
And, like, also, like, what ableist thinking are you harboring right there?

28:34 – 28:42
Right? 1, you know, I my experience in the parks, I’ve been with other people, my family, my spouse at least. Right? Like at least one other person.

28:42 – 28:48
The system that they’re encouraging would require you to you would always have to be with someone if you were to like because

28:48 – 28:54
strangers are lovely at times, but we’ve all seen those videos of, you know, Disney gone wrong. Mhmm.

28:54 – 28:55
The person, the stranger behind me

28:55 – 29:07
is not gonna stand there and hold my spot in line so that I can step out, take my insulin shot, and do what I need to do to, like, be able to come back. Like, that’s just not gonna happen. It’s not gonna happen.

29:07 – 29:16
And you’re basing this one other non medical professional is going to interview me and make the decision based on their own

29:16 – 29:23
personal opinion of my condition, whether or not I qualify for accommodation.

29:24 – 29:27
And the what, communities are saying, try again.

29:27 – 29:32
They’re like, the first person says no, try again, because the next person might say yes.

29:32 – 29:34
And that shows you lack of consistency with criteria.

29:35 – 29:35
Right?

29:36 – 29:37
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

29:37 – 29:38
As I was hearing

29:38 – 29:40
all this, I’m like, who what are

29:40 – 29:43
the qualifications to be somebody who’s taking these calls?

29:44 – 29:46
Is it somebody who has experienced these?

29:46 – 29:53
Do they have some sort of licensing or had to have they had any sort of, experience in dealing with that?

29:53 – 29:58
And if it’s a Florida representative, the parks over there are massive. They’re huge.

29:59 – 30:06
And, you know, I get that Disneyland is compact here, but Disney world, if you’re thinking of the different parks, there’s

30:06 – 30:09
so many other elements that are working against you.

30:09 – 30:17
Literally weather elements that could really, you know, stop a person with disabilities from enjoying the parks in the way that they want to.

30:17 – 30:24
So I think it this is just kind of, you know, when we’re talking about hospitality and the just the juxtaposition of how we

30:24 – 30:29
were talking about it earlier to now, the consistency isn’t there. And, you know,

30:29 – 30:30
we need to we

30:30 – 30:32
need to know and do better.

30:32 – 30:41
Yeah. I I think, one of the, things that we’ve seen online, specifically people with epilepsy and people with POTS, have been denied.

30:41 – 30:45
And they have complained that there is no way that they could do the return to Lyme.

30:45 – 30:52
And and again, the the individuals with POTS, they they can’t stay on for, long periods of time.

30:53 – 30:56
And so the statement was when you could use a wheelchair.

30:56 – 31:03
But again, if you need to use the bathroom, can your wheelchair go backwards in the queue? And, the queue moves.

31:03 – 31:07
So by the time you come back, you have new people in the queue are going, Why are you cutting us?

31:07 – 31:08
Why are you walking through?

31:08 – 31:12
Why why are you rolling through in in this wheelchair? Like, what what is this?

31:12 – 31:16
Because I certainly know that, people get so angry when you have a

31:16 – 31:23
line holder. Gosh. Do they ever? Even So I mean, our first experience taking the kids, they were littles. Right?

31:23 – 31:26
And so, like, one parent would Stef, the other parent would, like, run to the bathroom and come back.

31:26 – 31:30
Even then, right, you’d get, like, looks. I’m like, look. They are little.

31:30 – 31:31
They’re, like, 4 and 6 at that time.

31:31 – 31:34
Like, we are not we are not doing that.

31:35 – 31:44
And those of us with disabilities, like, we all carry our own, like, shame and awareness that everyone is talking about us. Everyone is making comments about this.

31:44 – 31:51
I go to the park with everything that I could possibly bring in with me to make sure I’m as least disruptive to everybody

31:51 – 31:57
else around me and can have my day in the best way that I can for myself.

31:57 – 32:07
And how utterly disgusting is it that the response is, we’ll bring an ice pack. I’m Oh, yeah. Sorry. We have our cooling racks. We have our fans. We have our drinks.

32:07 – 32:13
We we we do all the things to make sure that not only I’ll speak for myself.

32:13 – 32:15
It’s not just for so that I can have the best day possible.

32:15 – 32:22
It really is so that I minimize my impact on everybody else around me, which is a weight I should not be carrying in the first place.

32:22 – 32:35
But I do, and then to even then say, well I still need some accommodation. And to be like, well no. You can have a wheelchair. It’s not that’s not a solution. That’s not a solution.

32:35 – 32:42
No. I I really, I think you’re highlighting, like, that lived experience because I know for myself, first, it took a while

32:42 – 32:47
to even admit that I needed accommodations because I said I can bring all of these things. Right?

32:47 – 32:51
I can have my neck fit on. I can, bring extra medication. I can bring my EpiPen.

32:51 – 32:53
Like, I can I can do all that? I can do all that.

32:53 – 32:59
When it got to the point to admit that I needed accommodations, It was again, like, that imposture center.

33:00 – 33:02
Maybe I don’t or maybe other people need them more.

33:02 – 33:06
That that feeling of inconveniencing the able-bodied world.

33:07 – 33:07
Right.

33:08 – 33:13
And, and I know even for, for you Stef, because we’re talking about dynamic disabilities, pregnancy.

33:13 – 33:21
My goodness. Yeah. And, you know, it was funny because I did many things in my second pregnancy because my first pregnancy,

33:21 – 33:25
half of it was during the pandemic. So did nothing. I stayed at my house.

33:26 – 33:27
I didn’t have to experience these things.

33:27 – 33:34
But my second pregnancy being after the pandemic, I’m like, let me do it all. I need to be out there.

33:34 – 33:39
But my body was like, you are not the same as you were before the world shut down.

33:39 – 33:46
And even navigating I know this isn’t a park, but, when we went to Comic Con while I was 6 months pregnant Oh, sure.

33:46 – 33:53
I didn’t even think of accommodations for myself because I was like, I am just carrying a baby.

33:54 – 33:58
But that’s not how it should be viewed. I am carrying a baby.

33:58 – 34:12
I am literally growing a life inside of me, and I cannot do the things that other able-bodied people can do because I am literally not myself. I my body is exhausted. And

34:19 – 34:26
I should have And I should have accommodations so that I can do that comfortably without harming my body.

34:26 – 34:29
You know, thankfully, I was in a position where I didn’t have a high risk pregnancy.

34:30 – 34:37
But for other women who have high risk pregnancies, I don’t think they should be stopped from doing what they want to do comfortably

34:38 – 34:42
just because they are, you know, gonna be a mother.

34:42 – 34:51
And, you know, there has been so many stigmas with pregnant women and what they shouldn’t do, what they can’t do, all of these things.

34:51 – 35:01
And that totally plays into their mental well-being as their hormones are changing, as their brains are, you know, preparing

35:01 – 35:03
for this as they’re growing a life inside of them.

35:04 – 35:08
So I don’t recall being in Florida.

35:08 – 35:17
Actually, I was early on in my pregnancy, and there were some accommodations, and I had traveled with my parents who have disabilities.

35:17 – 35:22
You know, my mom gets tired really fast and, you know, she can’t be walking for a long time.

35:22 – 35:28
And my father has, he has had a kidney transplant. So he has He’s got

35:28 – 35:29
a million.

35:29 – 35:33
Yeah. He has, like, so many inside of him. He’s had many transplants.

35:33 – 35:41
And so, yeah, we were able to use a wheelchair for the both of them, but then it became an access issue where we were like,

35:41 – 35:52
do we pay for a more expensive wheelchair for all 4 days at the parks, or do we use a manual wheelchair where one of us would have to push?

35:53 – 36:03
And by one of us is my husband who is taking care of our toddler, me who is pregnant, or my mom who is not very strong in

36:03 – 36:06
her age to push my father in the wheelchair.

36:06 – 36:16
So now it becomes a social economic thing To where now the family has to decide, do I have dinner at Be Our Guest, or do I

36:16 – 36:19
use that money to pay for a wheelchair?

36:19 – 36:24
And, you know, those are really difficult decisions for families to make. It’s just Yeah.

36:25 – 36:26
Just to have a good day at the park.

36:26 – 36:34
Absolutely. I mean, it’s an expense and it’s such a plan heavy experience anyway. Right?

36:34 – 36:40
And then, yeah, do you try to play the wheelchair lottery and, like, be super early to be, like, the first one in to get one

36:40 – 36:44
that’s provided in the parks that you still have to pay for? Mhmm.

36:44 – 36:50
Or do you search for outside ones that can then be brought to you and pay for, you know, slightly more, but have your own

36:50 – 36:59
like, it’s, life is difficult enough for able-bodied individuals, let alone when those of us that, have disabilities of any

36:59 – 37:05
type, visible or invisible, to then just be like, well, you can just Yeah. Get a wheelchair.

37:05 – 37:08
You can just bring some ice packs.

37:08 – 37:16
You can just, you know, have someone else save your spot in line. Yeah. Yeah. That’s not real life. And if you jump through

37:16 – 37:23
if you jump through all of those hoops anyway, you still get to a ride like Peter Pan’s flight and say, we don’t use that accommodation here.

37:24 – 37:32
You have to use the regular line because this is an attraction that is excluded from those accommodations because it’s so popular.

37:32 – 37:37
So even if you do all of those things, you still have those restrictions.

37:37 – 37:37
And Mhmm.

37:37 – 37:40
You know, what if that was your favorite ride?

37:40 – 37:42
And what if that’s something that you absolutely wanted to do?

37:42 – 37:48
And now you have that sense of I’m not good enough to be on this ride. You know?

37:48 – 37:56
Your mind immediately goes to that because, as you said, folks with dealing, having to deal with these things are hyper aware already.

37:56 – 37:59
And so how can they not go to there?

37:59 – 38:00
Right. And I think when

38:00 – 38:08
it comes to, individuals who are non disabled, who haven’t experienced a disability, Why it’s important to continue to be

38:08 – 38:16
an advocate for disability rights, is because a lot of the disabled communities identified that technically we’re all pre disabled.

38:16 – 38:24
We are living so long now that at some point, we will develop a disability, like being hard of hearing, a disability of low

38:24 – 38:27
vision, a disability with walking and arthritis.

38:28 – 38:36
So the more that we fight for accommodations now and advocacy, the more we’re setting up our future success as well.

38:36 – 38:43
I think we’ve already identified the various ways in which the system, as it stands right now, is flawed.

38:43 – 38:46
And although, again, it’s like you said, a meno. We’re a little meno.

38:47 – 38:56
I hope that others can hear this podcast and see, like, why the accommodations the way they were may have been flawed, but we’re still a lot better. Mhmm.

38:56 – 39:05
Even with that 30 day rule, I it makes me think of Stef when we had, Comic Con and we had a panel and one of our panelists broke their leg. Did you?

39:05 – 39:10
And we had to scramble to get them a, ramp to be able to go on the stage. Yeah.

39:10 – 39:17
You know, hopefully, between now and your trip, you don’t develop something where you might wanna request those accommodations

39:18 – 39:20
because you should have been injured 30 days ago.

39:20 – 39:24
You should have known. You should have known you were going to break your leg.

39:24 – 39:29
Or like 1 Comic Con, I broke my wrist the day of Comic Con.

39:30 – 39:34
I had an accident on a bird scooter and the rest was history.

39:35 – 39:37
It was my arm, so I could still walk.

39:38 – 39:45
But even Ariel that day was like, you need to get it to Staple Press because you literally got hurt on the way to Comic Con.

39:45 – 39:49
And, yeah, that’s just something that I did not even think about.

39:50 – 39:55
I think going full circle in what we’re talking about earlier, why not ask? Just ask.

39:55 – 39:56
Just ask.

39:56 – 39:59
Because what is the worst that could happen? You know? Mhmm. You’ll get denied.

40:00 – 40:03
And in the case of the DOS system, keep asking. Yes.

40:03 – 40:09
If you are somebody who is, you know, affected by these policy changes, keep asking.

40:09 – 40:15
Let them know that what is happening is not, it’s just not flexible for everyone.

40:16 – 40:20
It’s not equitable for everyone because now everything is so nuanced.

40:20 – 40:28
We are having dynamic disabilities, dynamic, you know, experiences, and that if they want to continue to be the hospitality

40:28 – 40:35
gold standard, that, you know, every voice that leads needs to be heard and even though it is such a big undertaking.

40:35 – 40:43
I mean, that’s not to say that there are not people who are willing to work for, you know, equity in this space. Absolutely.

40:44 – 40:48
Absolutely. I mean, we’re very used to jumping through the hoops put in front of us. Mhmm.

40:48 – 40:54
As long as we know that there are hoops to be jumped through and that there’s a possible, like, relief on the other side.

40:55 – 40:56
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

40:56 – 41:03
Now, I know, you were on an episode with us originally, episode 35, unlocking the healing powers of play.

41:03 – 41:06
And your conference at Disney was a play conference.

41:06 – 41:13
In having this conversation around disabilities and accommodations, what are some play based interventions for children and

41:13 – 41:23
adults with disabilities or accommodations to shift and change your mindset so that you can have play based interventions that are more dynamic? I love that.

41:23 – 41:29
I would go so far as I don’t know that there are specific interventions, but people in our professions to start adapting,

41:29 – 41:34
which is just kind of the this ableist lens, right?

41:34 – 41:38
So in play therapy, well in play in general, right?

41:38 – 41:43
When we talk about playing with kids, whether you’re a babysitter, whether you’re a teacher, whether you’re whether you’re

41:43 – 41:54
a play therapist, the idea I’ve I’ve heard clinicians tell this to parents that come in, like, get on the floor and play with your kids. Guess what? No. No.

41:55 – 42:01
And so being able to just adopt this lens of it’s okay to not play on the floor.

42:02 – 42:08
Play that’s on a table, play that is movement based, play that it looks different is still valuable.

42:08 – 42:14
There’s no difference in the value of play based on how you’re playing. Mhmm.

42:15 – 42:22
And we can set those accommodations for ourselves as practitioners, as educators, as the professional in the room, and we

42:22 – 42:29
can make those accommodations for the parents and the children that come into our rooms. 8, because I think there is this

42:29 – 42:39
idea that if you’re not able to get down on the floor and plan, and you’re not doing your job, and that is such an ableist viewpoint. Right?

42:39 – 42:46
Because, I mean, I could get down, but I’m gonna do some significant trauma to my client if they have to see me, like, flail

42:46 – 42:51
around on the floor because I cannot get back up. That is more damaging than helpful.

42:53 – 42:56
And it’s just diminishing my value as a practitioner.

42:57 – 43:05
If I can’t do it your way, then it’s not valued. We’re not doing that. It is 2024. We’re not doing that anymore. Right?

43:05 – 43:15
And so being able to look at play, families, kids in a lens of what accommodations do you need? Mhmm.

43:15 – 43:20
And and what can I provide to you knowing that, like, our space is limited, our funding is limited?

43:20 – 43:24
But like sometimes it’s just permission to not get on the floor.

43:24 – 43:29
Just permission to be able to say, I would much rather like, can I stand while we talk?

43:29 – 43:37
Because that’s much more comfortable than than sitting in this chair. Right? I was talking earlier today.

43:37 – 43:42
I think we’re making great strides in terms of accommodating children. Right?

43:42 – 43:45
There’s lots of fidgets now and hard candies and, like, body socks. Right?

43:45 – 43:50
Like, we’re making accommodations for kids with sensory needs and neurodiverse needs.

43:51 – 43:56
That needs to be extended to adults and professionals as well. Right?

43:57 – 44:02
I know in our conference, even at Disney, there were times where, you know, you’d see people stand up and, like, move to the

44:02 – 44:09
back of the room to, like, have some movement in their day and, like, you know, stretch the bodies however they needed to. Right? And just like permission giving. Right?

44:09 – 44:14
Like, do what you need to to take care of yourself. Right? It’s it’s so, so important.

44:15 – 44:22
It goes back to, like, you know, even Ariel, what what you’re saying is, like, it takes us a long time to even be honest about what we need ourselves.

44:22 – 44:23
Yes.

44:23 – 44:29
Right? And so even just opening the door of, like, this is my typical room setup, but if it would be more helpful for you

44:29 – 44:36
or more comfortable for you, you know, I have this other seating option, or we could go outside and walk around, or we could stand.

44:36 – 44:43
It was just kind of opening the door because often we’re not honest with ourselves about what we need or what would be helpful, right?

44:43 – 44:48
We’re, we’re so used to like gridding it and just getting through, not being a burden to anybody else.

44:49 – 44:56
So putting on that lens and then just opening the door of, like, you know, I have giant fluorescent lights on, but I can also

44:56 – 44:57
turn them off and turn on lamps.

44:58 – 45:02
And I’ll have that set up and have a kid come in and say, why is it so dark in here?

45:02 – 45:04
I can turn on the bright lights, right?

45:04 – 45:10
Like, kids kids have much less shame of asking for what they need and what they want than themselves do.

45:11 – 45:13
Along the way, it is beaten out of us.

45:13 – 45:19
And so part of this is just an invitation to, like, you know, if there is something that I can do within my space to make

45:19 – 45:23
this an easier situation and a better learning experience for you, please let me know.

45:23 – 45:25
And if it’s in my power, I’m gonna I’m gonna do that.

45:26 – 45:30
And extending that that grace and kindness to ourselves as professionals.

45:31 – 45:35
You know, if I’m presenting all day, I don’t wanna stand for 8 hours.

45:35 – 45:38
My body, if I do that, and I could do that. Right?

45:38 – 45:43
Like, I could push myself to do that thing for you, and then I’m gonna spend 2 days in recovery. Mhmm.

45:43 – 45:44
And I

45:44 – 45:46
don’t think I wanna do that. Yeah. Right?

45:46 – 45:48
So can I can I sit down for part of it?

45:48 – 45:51
Can we do a movement based activity for part of it?

45:52 – 45:55
Can I lay down on the ground, put my feet up on the wall for a little bit?

45:55 – 46:01
Because then tomorrow, I’m gonna be a better version of myself than if I had not done these things for me.

46:01 – 46:10
And that doesn’t it should not deduct from my personal and professional, like, value. Yes. Yes.

46:10 – 46:14
I think something else we talked about ask and guess culture.

46:14 – 46:16
But then there’s like, like, that next step when

46:16 – 46:19
you think of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging.

46:19 – 46:24
That belonging part is that you don’t even have to guess or ask. I gave you the permission, right?

46:24 – 46:27
Because you’re because that’s what you did Stefanie at the conference.

46:27 – 46:31
I remember every day started with, hey, you know, learn how is best for you.

46:31 – 46:41
If you need to sit on the floor, if you want to be closer to the plug ins, if you want to get up and move, Do not feel afraid to do those things. It will not distract the presenters.

46:42 – 46:46
We want you to be able to digest the material the best way that you can.

46:46 – 46:51
And I can see someone guess culture they may not ask because they think they can’t guess the answer.

46:52 – 46:56
And someone with ask culture may not have even known to ask. Sure. Yeah. Sure.

46:56 – 46:58
I mean, I can speak for myself.

46:58 – 47:05
Like I went decades dealing with what I know now, happening for myself, not asking, right?

47:05 – 47:09
And some of that was the assumption that like, well, everyone else is dealing with this too.

47:09 – 47:12
So if they don’t need it, I shouldn’t need it, right?

47:14 – 47:16
Versus I don’t know what to ask for.

47:16 – 47:17
I don’t I don’t know what’s possible.

47:17 – 47:19
I don’t want to be told no.

47:19 – 47:20
I don’t want to be seen as a burden.

47:21 – 47:26
And so, yeah, just being able to be like, hey, take care of yourself. No. Truly, truly take care of yourself. Right?

47:27 – 47:29
This is not an empty kind of invitation.

47:30 – 47:37
And then it does help too to, like, have a couple people who did use those things, right, did accommodate themselves. It was not disruptive.

47:38 – 47:40
And sometimes it’s like, oh, you see 1?

47:40 – 47:45
It kinda gives natural permission for you to do it if you also need it.

47:45 – 47:52
Yeah. Yeah. And I think having, like, agreements at the beginning of sessions like these, I know that before, like, I have

47:52 – 47:59
a training session with my staff or even when, you know, you’re introducing yourself to a new classroom, just having those

47:59 – 48:02
group agreements to say, hey, it’s okay to do these things.

48:03 – 48:08
It’s okay to do whatever you need to do so you can show up in your best way.

48:08 – 48:14
And that makes me show up in my best way so we can do learning at the most highest level is so important.

48:14 – 48:22
And it creates that community that, you know, allows people to, you know, be their best selves in order to learn.

48:23 – 48:29
And sometimes, you know, we’re so in the mode of let’s just get this done or let’s just go through it because there was so

48:29 – 48:38
much planning that had to go through it that we’ve even forget to stop as facilitators to say, hey, let’s do these group agreements so that we can just pause.

48:38 – 48:46
And before we do all of this fun stuff, we can do the fun stuff and keep it fun as opposed to just gridding through it.

48:47 – 48:52
And Steph, I’m curious for you because you provide accommodations in the classroom. What are learning accommodations?

48:53 – 48:57
What do those look like for the children that you’re working with?

48:57 – 49:01
Yeah. I mean, it can it can look like so many different things.

49:01 – 49:10
And I think now as educators having so many tools at their fingertips, it’s not just finding a really fun video to show.

49:10 – 49:14
It’s not just getting the kids up and doing, you know, a movement break.

49:14 – 49:18
It could be like, you know, we’re gonna have stations to where some of these kids can get to play with tech.

49:18 – 49:22
We can have another station where some kids are getting to play with something sensory.

49:22 – 49:28
We can have another station where, you know, you have a creative thing where they’re just, like, literally in a box with kinetic sand.

49:29 – 49:36
I think it’s really knowing who you’re serving and who you are accommodating for. That’s the biggest thing.

49:36 – 49:43
Because, you know, there is a little bit of preplanning to make sure that you have the right tools to be able to let these

49:43 – 49:45
kids learn as best as they can.

49:45 – 49:53
And that can look like so many different things from 6 year olds, even now 4 year olds who are coming in in early TK, all

49:53 – 49:58
the way to, middle school to where they’re now learning in such dynamic ways.

49:58 – 50:06
And you need to kind of catch up to the ways that they are processing information outside of the classroom. It’s a lot.

50:07 – 50:08
And it’s a big undertaking for a

50:12 – 50:20
rise of educators who are kind of my age in that middle of the analog and the digital world to where we can actually bridge

50:20 – 50:23
those gaps into how kids are learning now.

50:23 – 50:32
I have a lot of hope for it, but that’s not to say that, you know, it it’s it’s gonna take a lot of group work in order to make it happen.

50:33 – 50:41
But I’m thankful that I work at a school that does put DEIB at the front of, you know, our learning and that, I know so many

50:41 – 50:49
educators that I work with who are vulnerable and are willing to be students themselves in order to better themselves in the classroom.

50:49 – 50:53
It’s a big undertaking, but, you know, there’s a lot of people who are dedicated to the work.

50:54 – 50:58
Well, I think that goes back to just opening the door and asking, right?

50:58 – 51:05
Whether it’s on a conference registration, whether it’s on, you know, 1st day info to parents about you as a teacher, like,

51:05 – 51:10
what accommodations might your student need, or you need. Right?

51:10 – 51:14
Whether that’s accommodation asking, for intake for new clients. Right?

51:14 – 51:19
Like what kind of accommodations might be helpful for you to get the most out of our time together?

51:20 – 51:27
Because if we don’t ask, we don’t open that door, it’s a lot harder for them to have to like do that first step.

51:27 – 51:33
Yeah. Absolutely. Well, these were all such amazing topics, I think, that we have brought up.

51:33 – 51:40
And as we do here in Happiest Pod, we are always asking questions and we are not afraid now to ask those questions.

51:40 – 51:42
I’m not gonna be afraid to ask questions now.

51:42 – 51:49
But, a light ending on a lighter note, before we wrap up, can you tell us, Marie, a little bit about what we can expect from

51:49 – 51:59
your upcoming play therapy in 2025, anything you’re excited about, and any advice or info for those listeners who are interested in attending.

51:59 – 52:02
Sure. Yeah. So, yeah, we’re back at it.

52:02 – 52:06
I had originally said, like, oh, maybe I’ll do this again in 2 years.

52:06 – 52:08
Like, date the, like, the last day, I was like, there’s no way.

52:08 – 52:16
There’s no way I can wait 2 years to do this again. 1, this was just was way, way too much of what I needed. 2, the relationships

52:16 – 52:21
and the connections that I saw, and we continue to have a very active WhatsApp group.

52:21 – 52:28
Those relationships are so important that I did not wanna I did not wanna delay that, any further. And so, yeah.

52:28 – 52:33
So we’re gonna do, where it’s a little hints from the first go around. Right?

52:33 – 52:35
Like, we improve each time we get to do it.

52:35 – 52:41
So it’s gonna be we’re gonna be March, 10th through 15th at Disneyland Hotel.

52:42 – 52:47
It will be 6 nights, because I wanna give a full 3 days in the park.

52:47 – 52:54
But it’ll be that integration again between days of learning, and then integrative days in the park.

52:54 – 53:00
And this year, we’ll actually have meet up times in the park to do integrated learning inside of the park.

53:01 – 53:04
So we’re very, very excited about that.

53:04 – 53:08
I’m definitely still nailing down presentations and speakers and topics.

53:08 – 53:19
And I also wanna kinda put out because there we did have, wonderful individuals who are not play therapists and have no interest in being a play therapist. Come. This this is geared towards play.

53:19 – 53:22
This does not just for play therapists.

53:22 – 53:29
So if you are a professional in the realm and would like to learn about how play impacts learning and mental health, you are

53:29 – 53:34
very welcome to join us, for this experience at Disneyland. Yeah.

53:34 – 53:41
It was I mean, you guys got to partake in some of it, but it was just it was so much more than I could have hoped it to be.

53:41 – 53:46
And it really did kinda take on a life of its own. So I’m very excited.

53:46 – 53:48
We we we are keeping it very small, though.

53:48 – 53:56
So if you are interested, do not delay in in signing up because we are only taking 50 people, because that intimacy was really, really important.

53:57 – 54:00
And it allows me to really truly be accommodating to those that are coming.

54:01 – 54:07
It’s it’s easier for me to do that with a smaller group and so that I can kind of ensure everyone is having the time that

54:07 – 54:10
I would hope for them to have. Yeah.

54:10 – 54:18
If you wanna come and experience learning, in a very different way, or you’re just a Disney adult that wants to take a professional

54:18 – 54:24
conference and, bring your family to have a vacation. Come with us. Come with us.

54:24 – 54:30
And, I’m curious if you can give us any sort of sneak peek because, the conference that you had this year, some things that

54:30 – 54:33
stuck out for me, one WAG heavy.

54:33 – 54:39
I don’t know if that’s a Maria thing or that was just part of the Disney magic or if that’s a play conference thing.

54:39 – 54:42
But every day there were stickers and there were bracelets.

54:42 – 54:46
The pixie dust was on every table regularly during the conference.

54:47 – 54:56
And then, 2, there was, like, a semi virtual booth component where, one of your sponsors, we got to watch them working in

54:56 – 55:01
their studio to create small ceramic figurines for, your sand tray.

55:01 – 55:09
And, they had some pieces that you could buy, but, for, watching them in the studio and having them just, like, sort of, like,

55:09 – 55:12
beam in and answer questions, I thought that was really interesting.

55:12 – 55:18
So are those are there other things that you could just let our listeners know to expect? Yeah. Yeah.

55:18 – 55:21
The swag is all me. I love the swag.

55:21 – 55:22
I love

55:22 – 55:30
the swag. Swag. And, you know, coming right off of like, you know, the combination of of Taylor Swift and Disney, right? So we have friendship bracelets.

55:30 – 55:34
We had lots of Disney and mental health themed kind of stickers.

55:34 – 55:44
Part of that is for me when I go to events, that I’m not hosting, I I always add a bit of element of play for myself because that is how I stay engaged. Right?

55:44 – 55:51
So if I go to a conference, so we were up in Albuquerque, which is not far from me in my state. Conference wasn’t great.

55:52 – 55:59
So I immediately set out to find an escape room to take my team, and we did an escape room one afternoon because I was like, I needed I needed something.

55:59 – 56:01
But it’s also a memento for me, right?

56:01 – 56:09
So like what I have my friendship bracelets hanging here and it’s like, Oh, remember when we were spreading pixie dust across like the parks? Like that was so fun.

56:09 – 56:12
So so the spike is neat and it will definitely be there.

56:12 – 56:14
And I have even more time now, so who knows?

56:15 – 56:21
Who knows the level of sweat that will happen? We’ve got, like, villain shirts, ideas. Like, we’ve got a whole thing.

56:21 – 56:22
Okay.

56:22 – 56:26
And then, yeah, our talk about pivoting and making accommodations.

56:26 – 56:35
We, the the women who own Mama Isles Minis, one of them became ill and was not allowed to travel to come for the conference as planned.

56:36 – 56:42
And so we we pivoted and made the accommodations, and they’re like, we we will hang out on Zoom all day, and people could

56:42 – 56:45
stop by, ask questions, see us working.

56:45 – 56:47
They got to talk with the group for a little bit.

56:48 – 56:58
So, yeah, that’s yes, and and I have even more time to, like, figure out good connections to bring in. And that’s really what it is. Right?

56:58 – 57:05
It’s those good connections, those good really I’m very, very lucky and privileged with the connections that I’ve had.

57:06 – 57:09
I’ve gotten to meet some really incredible individuals.

57:10 – 57:16
And so sometimes when I’m doing these events, it’s like, who do I know that I think the rest of you guys should know?

57:16 – 57:19
And and and just inviting them to come to the table, right?

57:20 – 57:22
Using my privileges like, well, I’m the host.

57:22 – 57:25
So I get to say, you can have a seat at this table.

57:26 – 57:28
Yeah. Using that power for good.

57:29 – 57:29
Absolutely.

57:32 – 57:35
That could be a whole another conversation with you too. Right?

57:35 – 57:42
But being able to, like, oh, I I get to hold the door open and let those important voices come to the table.

57:42 – 57:47
And sometimes that means, you know, we had planned for them to be there in person, and that didn’t work out.

57:47 – 57:50
How do we still make sure that their voices are are heard?

57:50 – 57:57
You know, and with technology the way it is right now, it’s kind of it’s kind of easier to do. Yeah. Yeah.

57:57 – 58:05
And that totally comes out. You can see the passion in what the PLAY therapy conference, like, kind of materialized in.

58:05 – 58:11
And it really did, I feel, touch every single person who attended, whether it was for a short amount of time or a long amount of time. Mhmm.

58:13 – 58:17
As not a clinician, I got so much from the session that I attended.

58:17 – 58:24
Because as you know on this podcast, me and Ariel, because we have different professions, we have a lot of similarities in what we do.

58:24 – 58:30
If you are somebody who serves other people, is a steward for, you know, helping other people get through life.

58:30 – 58:39
You are qualified to be able to come to this play therapy conference and play and fulfill yourself so that you, your bucket

58:39 – 58:47
is filled if I can throw, an education term so your bucket is filled so you can fill other people’s buckets as much as humanly possible.

58:48 – 58:53
Yeah. So if you are interested, the conference will be from March 10th to 15th, 2025.

58:54 – 59:01
You can register now at onewhope tc.org, forward slash play at disneyland.

59:01 – 59:09
So, again, that is anewhopetc.org forward slash play at disneyland. You can get registered.

59:09 – 59:13
You can, look at the frequently asked questions section.

59:13 – 59:22
And for those who are interested and want to follow for more news, you can go ahead and follow, the Instagram at a new hope

59:22 – 59:31
TC, and they will, regularly be updating, regarding the conference as well as other events that I know, you are hosting, Maria,

59:31 – 59:33
including the SIP conference that is coming up.

59:33 – 59:41
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah. And things like the Geek Summit, which Ariel, you were all part of and we hope to to do again. So, yeah.

59:41 – 59:46
If you have any interest in how we blend mental health and pop culture, we would love for

59:46 – 59:46
you guys to take

59:46 – 59:47
a look at us.

59:47 – 59:49
So go ahead and send us those questions.

59:50 – 59:57
If you have any at happiestpodgt for Instagram and x. Let us know, your experiences.

59:58 – 01:00:03
If you’ve got updates regarding the DAS program, you know, let us know so we can spread the word.

01:00:04 – 01:00:07
And thank you, Maria, for joining us again. Thank you. Anytime.

Media/Characters Mentioned
  • Disneyland
  • Mickey and Minnie Mouse
  • Peter Pan’s Flight
  • Grand Californian Hotel
  • Genie Plus
  • Aladdin’s Genie
  • TARDIS
Topics/Themes Mentioned
  • Ableism
  • Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging (DEIB)
  • Dynamic Disabilities
  • Play Therapy
  • Event Planning
  • Ask Culture vs. Guess Culture
  • Imposter Syndrome
  • Disability Access Services (DAS)
  • Hospitality and Accessibility
  • Advocacy for Disability Rights
  • Play-Based Interventions
  • Educational Accommodations
  • Person-First vs. Identity-First Language

Website: happy.geektherapy.com
 | Instagram: @HappiestPodGT | Twitter: @HappiestPodGT | Facebook: @HappiestPodGT |
 | Stef on Twitter: @stefa_kneee | Ariel on Instagram: @airyell3000 |
| A New Hope on Instagram: @ANewHopeTC | Facebook: ANewHopeTC |

Geek Therapy is a 501(c)(3) non-profit that advocates for the effective and meaningful use of popular media in therapeutic, educational, and community practice.
| GT Facebook: @GeekTherapy | GT Twitter: @GeekTherapy |
| GT Forum: forum.geektherapy.com  | GT Discord: geektherapy.com/discord |
Website: https://www.anewhopetc.org/

Finding Belonging With Turning Red

May 7, 2024 · Discuss on the GT Forum

https://media.blubrry.com/happypod/media.transistor.fm/c7719f59/f77d917f.mp3

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41: Join Ariel, Stef, and their distinguished guests, Soo Jin and Linda—authors and mental health professionals—as they bond over Pixar’s Turning Red. This episode covers the film’s profound themes of family, identity, mental health, and cultural nuances. Our discussion celebrates the movie and the real-life reflections it inspires, especially during AANHPI Heritage Month and Mental Health Awareness Month. Just in time to celebrate Pixar Fest, this conversation promises to bridge the gap between popular culture and professional insights.

Disney/Pixar Turning Red: Mei’s Little Box of Big Feelings Storybooks

Free Downloadable Turning Red Activity Sheets Developed and Provided by Disney/PixarDownload
Summary

Summary of HPOE41

  • 00:00 Introduction: Introduction to the episode with Ariel and Stef welcoming guests Soo Jin and Linda, setting up the discussion about Pixar’s Turning Red as it relates to AANHPI Heritage Month, Mental Health Awareness Month, and Pixar Fest.
  • 01:02 Turning Red Discussion Kickoff: Discussion on the significance of Turning Red, how it relates to the personal experiences of the hosts and guests, especially during Asian American, Pacific Islander, and Native Hawaiian Heritage Month.
  • 02:35 Watch Party Experience: Guests share their unique experiences of watching Turning Red through a virtual watch party, emphasizing community and shared experiences in appreciating the film.
  • 07:01 Cultural and Emotional Impact: Delving into how Turning Red reflects personal and cultural narratives, exploring themes of adolescence, identity, and the Asian diaspora experience.
  • 19:34 Deep Dive into Themes: Analysis of the major themes in Turning Red such as identity, family pressure, and the intersection of culture and personal growth, including the challenges faced by second-generation immigrants.
  • 34:18 Professional Insights and Book Discussion: Guests discuss how the film’s themes are relevant in their professional practice as mental health professionals and talk about their book, Where I Belong: Healing Trauma and Embracing Asian American Identity, offering insights into therapy and cultural humility.
  • 40:45 Engagement and Representation: Strategies discussed for engaging communities and readers through the themes of the movie, and the importance of representation in media.
  • 47:30 Conclusion and Further Resources: Conclusion of the discussion, reflections on the impact of Turning Red, and information on where listeners can find related resources or engage further with the themes discussed
Transcription

Ariel Landrum (00:00)
Hello everyone, welcome to Happiest Pod on Earth. I’m Ariel, a licensed therapist who uses clients’ passions and fandoms to help them grow and heal from trauma and mental unwellness.

Stefanie Bautista (00:10)
And I’m Stef. I’m an educator who uses my passions and fandoms to help my students grow and learn about themselves and the world around them.

Soo Jin Lee (00:16)
Hello everyone, my name is Soo Jin Lee. I’m a licensed therapist passionate about supporting Asian Americans address mental health challenges surrounding identity and intergenerational healing.

Linda (00:26)
Hi, my name is Linda Yoon. I’m a licensed psychotherapist, social worker who is passionate about helping people heal from trauma and recovery.

Ariel Landrum (00:35)
And here at Happiest Pod, we dissect Disney mediums with a critical lens. Why? Because we are more than just fans and we expect more from the mediums we consume.

Stefanie Bautista (00:34)
Mm-hmm.

That’s right. And so on this episode, everybody, what are we going to discuss

Ariel Landrum (00:47)
Yeah, so everyone heard we have some very special, awesome guests, Soo Jin and Linda, and we thought this would be the most opportune time to talk about a film that came out essentially during the pandemic that we have revisited a few times, but never got to have on the show. And that is the iconic Pixar movie, Turning Red. And right now it’s Pixar Fest, so I’m hoping that at Disneyland we will be able to see Mei Mei and her mom.

Stefanie Bautista (01:10)
Yes, and not only is it Pixar Fest, it is also AAPI Heritage Month, which is Asian American, Pacific Islander and Native Hawaiian Heritage Month. So we would love to celebrate this amazing movie that spoke so dearly to my heart and to a lot of people who I know’s hearts, because growing up as an Asian American was a very unique experience. And it is so amazing to see that on the big screen.

Unfortunately, the little screen at first, because like as Ariel mentioned, it did come out during COVID. And I’m actually curious to know how did you all watch it? Did you watch it right when it came out? Did you watch it a little later? I know when you have the ability to just watch things on your own, not everybody flocks to the theater. So I’m curious to know how did you all watch it the first time?

Linda (01:53)
Actually our staff, Soo Jin and I, who run a group practice, we have around that time we had about 20 staff, mostly Asian American therapists, and we were very excited about this film coming out. And we used to do, since everybody’s working in the remote right, we used to do Happy Hour Friday. We didn’t really drink, we just watched movie together and had boba. That’s what we did.

Ariel Landrum (02:09)
Mm-hmm.

No, beautiful, beautiful.

Soo Jin Lee (02:17)
That’s the drink, the boba.

Linda (02:19)
The boba. And there used to be a lot of platforms that you can share screen and watch movies together during this time, right? So we actually watched like about seven of us gathered together. And that was my first time watching Turning Red.

Stefanie Bautista (02:19)
Yes.

Ariel Landrum (02:24)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (02:30)
Me too, yeah. So essentially we had a watch party at our work, which was really amazing. And this was, Turning Red was the one that everyone wanted to watch and we were so excited to watch it together. And so we definitely watched it on the mini screen for me because I had a laptop at the time. But even so, you know, in the mini screen of my laptop, I was just so zoned into the movie.

Ariel Landrum (02:34)
Mm-hmm.

Hahaha!

Stefanie Bautista (02:45)
Right, yeah, yeah.

Ariel Landrum (02:52)
Yeah, yeah, so I did watch it at home. My TV is 78 inches, so I don’t think it feels many to me. And I watched it with at the time my roommate because my partner was working at the ski resort and it was nice having a conversation with my roommate because they are

a non-binary white person, and they got to ask questions about my experience and if I understood like some of the themes happening in the movie. And I was presenting the themes that like stuck out to me. And it was really interesting how they had noted a part of the movie that I hadn’t considered because I was so engrossed in how it like solidified my experience as diaspora, which was the part of the movie where there was like a potential hint towards like a period.

Soo Jin Lee (03:34)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (03:34)
that never gets discussed anywhere. And I had so bypassed that. And they had highlighted how that was really so pivotal for them to see and how sad it was that we weren’t seeing it in theaters because of COVID, because of the fact that you don’t hear anybody talking about that part of a woman or a non-binary person with ovaries experiences.

Stefanie Bautista (03:34)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Linda (03:37)
Yes.

Stefanie Bautista (03:39)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (03:55)
Mm, yeah.

Stefanie Bautista (03:55)
Yeah, it’s so interesting to know that we can experience gruesome deaths on the screen, but oh my gosh, don’t even think about talking about it, period. We are not gonna talk about that. That’s too much for us. I don’t know if kids can handle that, period. Well, I just had my son right after this came out. And so I watched it in pieces because I like had a newborn and I was trying to figure out like, when am I gonna sit down? They always say like,

Ariel Landrum (04:02)
Hahahaha

Period.

Soo Jin Lee (04:06)
I’m…glurgeoning.

home.

Linda (04:15)
Mm.

Stefanie Bautista (04:19)
Oh, nap when the baby naps. Do laundry when the baby does laundry. Just kidding. Like, so I’m like, well, am I going to watch a movie when the baby watches a movie too? So I remember watching it in pieces, but having such big reactions. And he at the time loved the music. And it was, it’s so like 90s pop throughout the whole thing. Just the soundtrack itself is like not very symphonic like normal, but it was so upbeat that he would just be so entranced with the visuals and Mei Mei Mei Mei and

Ariel Landrum (04:22)
I’m sorry.

Linda (04:23)
Thank you.

Stefanie Bautista (04:45)
Is she so animated that he really liked it. But I did have to watch it another time because watching it in pieces I would have to like stop at like pivotal moments and I was like, oh no, what’s gonna happen next? so it was almost like an like a series for me because I would have to stop and then do something and then watch it again and didn’t do something But I loved it so much

Linda (04:47)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (04:57)
Hehehe

Soo Jin Lee (05:02)
Oh, I love that. After my showing the watch party on the small screen, after it came out on Disney+, I was telling my husband about it because he doesn’t really watch Disney shows as much or animated shows as much, but I had to convince him. I was like, we’re gonna sit down and you’re gonna watch this with me. And he ended up loving it too. Like it’s so corny, but I don’t know why I like it.

Linda (05:20)
It was really…

Stefanie Bautista (05:20)
I think that’s the best part, because it was so corny.

Soo Jin Lee (05:22)
Exactly.

Ariel Landrum (05:23)
Yeah.

Linda (05:23)
That was the best part. We watched with our staff, right? So we had some range of like who are young, like Gen-Zs and you’re a little bit more older, millennials. And I thought there were some references, right? Like the boy band, right? It was a Four Town and it was not four people. Was it five people? And I was so confused. And then one of my Gen Z K-Pop stan, you know.

Ariel Landrum (05:30)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (05:32)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (05:36)
Yeah. Yes.

Stefanie Bautista (05:37)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (05:39)
Yeah, yeah, it was.

Stefanie Bautista (05:40)
Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (05:40)
Yeah.

Stefanie Bautista (05:44)
Yeah.

Linda (05:44)
staff was like that’s you know making fun of 17 which is a boy band in a Korean boy band do not have 17 people

Stefanie Bautista (05:50)
Mm-hmm. They don’t have 17 people.

Ariel Landrum (05:51)
I’m sorry.

Soo Jin Lee (05:52)
Mei Mei Mei Mei his mom also makes that comment, right, in the movie as well. Being the mom is like, I don’t even understand the name. There’s five of them. Why are they calling it Four Town?

Stefanie Bautista (05:55)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (05:56)
Yes, yes

..

Stefanie Bautista (06:01)
No.

Ariel Landrum (06:02)
Yes, the boy band era of my life. Where nothing makes sense and it was they were all the same and yet very different. And you had to choose one. I am this.

Soo Jin Lee (06:07)
Uh huh.

Stefanie Bautista (06:12)
You had to stan one, yeah. Yeah, and I think I was reading, yes, you have to have enemies, exactly. You have to have the rival boy band. And I was gonna ask this question later on, but I guess this is a good time to ask it. Who was your favorite boy band growing up? Did you have a loyal allegiance to one and then not like another?

Soo Jin Lee (06:14)
You have to, yeah? And then you have to have enemies.

Yes.

Ariel Landrum (06:33)
Okay, so this is, we’re redoing parts of the house because we’re gonna move in some roommates. So we have to like move everything out of what was my office and the guest room. And we were putting all of these bookshelves together in the living room. And I found a binder like so thick of CDs. And I had, I had Nsync and Backstreet Boys next to each other. And I had Christina Aguilera and Britney Spears next to each other.

Soo Jin Lee (06:49)
Oh my goodness!

Stefanie Bautista (06:54)
Oh.

Ariel Landrum (06:57)
I think I’ve always been a yes and girl. Yeah.

Stefanie Bautista (07:00)
Ah, okay, okay.

Soo Jin Lee (07:02)
Very rare for that time.

Ariel Landrum (07:04)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (07:04)
Yeah, yeah. Soo Jin, Linda, did you have a preference or doesn’t have to be the big ones, but it can be.

Linda (07:05)
Okay.

Soo Jin Lee (07:08)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. So for me, I actually grew up in Korea and then my family immigrated here when I was 10 years old. And so like K-Pop during like the 90s, K-Pop was what was really in my culture and identity as an immigrant. And there was this group called G.O.D. like they’re supposed to be like, and we would call them like, they’re our God. But that was the K-Pop group that

Ariel Landrum (07:17)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (07:19)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh. The what?

Ariel Landrum (07:30)
Yeah.

Soo Jin Lee (07:33)
Like my friend group was like really hanging on to.

Stefanie Bautista (07:35)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (07:36)
Yeah, I also grew up, some of my childhood in Korea and then listened to a lot of 90s K-Pop. G.O.D. was a big popular one. There’s also SHINHWA. There’s also, there’s many boy bands. It was kind of like a first generation of K-Pop, I have to say. I never really had like one band that I was like really…

Ariel Landrum (07:50)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (07:51)
Mm-hmm.

obsessed with.

Linda (07:56)
devoted to, yeah, devoted I’m a late bloomer perhaps, because when I was like, like in my twenties, right? I graduated college and I was like so into One Direction for a while, but I was also ashamed because, you know, that, you know, something, that’s something that you should be doing when you’re a teenager, not when you’re graduating and working in a professional.

Ariel Landrum (07:57)
Yeah.

Stefanie Bautista (08:06)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (08:06)
Yeah.

Stefanie Bautista (08:15)
Oh, oh my gosh, that’s such a great segue because it never left me. I was as a teenager, a young, like really early teens. I picked the Backstreet Boys side because I was like, oh, they have better harmonies. They do acapella better. Like, I know they’re not the best dancers, but they were the ones who came first and all this stuff. But I mean, low key, I really loved Nsync too, because they were like on Disney Channel and they had like really major hits.

Soo Jin Lee (08:36)
I’m going to go ahead and turn it off.

Stefanie Bautista (08:40)
I couldn’t deny it. And in the back of my mind, I’m like, I know they’re all friends in like behind the scenes and they are, they’re all friends behind the scenes. I listened to a lot of their podcasts and they’re all just friends and they raise their kids now together. But when I was going to college and grad school, I had like a resurgence because it was like 2010s K-Pop like came about and I got hooked on Super Junior and

Ariel Landrum (09:00)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (09:04)
Mmm.

Stefanie Bautista (09:05)
and all of those people who came out around like the early 2000s. And then I also went to Japan and was obsessed with J-Pop boy bands because I was so over American music at the time. I was like, oh, this is not doing it for me. I just need something like Upbeat to help me get through college and get through all of these hardships and stuff. And K-Pop and J-Pop were just there for me. And…

Soo Jin Lee (09:12)
I’m sorry.

Ariel Landrum (09:22)
Yeah.

Stefanie Bautista (09:26)
you know, with the internet kind of like giving me the opportunity to like research these things. And, you know, even though it was like you had to join a live journal or like you had to be part of a community. I did all of that stuff because I was on the computer anyway. So I was like, oh, even though I’m like 20 something deep down inside, I’m still a big, big fangirl.

Soo Jin Lee (09:44)
Yeah, yeah. There’s something about not just the beat itself, but I think the repeated lyrics of positivity that just continues on. Yeah, we just all need that at whatever stage we’re in our lives, right?

Ariel Landrum (09:50)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (09:51)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yeah, absolutely.

Ariel Landrum (09:57)
Well, I think when I, I lived in Korea for three years cause my dad was in the Navy and he was stationed there. And it was interesting because the music that I was hearing at that time had like British influence. So there was Craig David, like I had his whole album and then there was like S Club 7 and there was always like a British influence. So when I think of like my experience in Korea, I think of British singer.

Which is so odd, and I don’t know if that’s because we were on the military base or what, but that I also that so it was from the ages of 11 to 13. I was almost 14. And the other things that I remember being obsessed with at those ages, which is sort of like Mei Mei Mei Mei ages, was a popcorn chicken, KFC popcorn chicken everywhere.

Stefanie Bautista (10:25)
Ha ha ha.

Ariel Landrum (10:40)
and taking photos in the photo booth with the background, very like 90s, but it was something I was doing in the 2000s where you’re staring off into, maybe that’s why I stare off into distance, so you’re staring off into distance, or you have your arm around your friend and all these awkward poses. Yes.

Stefanie Bautista (10:46)
Yeah.

Soo Jin Lee (10:47)
Yeah.

Hahaha

Stefanie Bautista (10:56)
Oh yeah, like the photo makers, like pictures with like the, the very, not blurry, but they’re just like hazy backgrounds of like stars and things like that. And then you would like trade. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (11:04)
Mm-hmm. And there’s like a pedestal where you put your arm on. Yes. And then sometimes they would put like a furry white thing. It’s like, this is a cloud.

Soo Jin Lee (11:04)
Yeah.

Yes, yes, yeah.

Ha ha!

Yes, yeah. And then the, what is it, photo stickers came after that. And that became like the thing. Yeah, and I had it everywhere, right? Like all my journals, all my agenda books, like every single one of my binders and wallets had to have these photo stickers.

Stefanie Bautista (11:18)
Yes, I was gonna say photo stickers.

Ariel Landrum (11:19)
Yess

Stefanie Bautista (11:29)
Yeah. And like all of my binders had like pictures of my friends. And of course, like the people that I, you know, that I loved, like, and were fans of, and I remember my dad always telling me, why do you have pictures of people you don’t even know? Why don’t you put our pictures on there? Put your family pictures. Like that’s not how it works.

Ariel Landrum (11:42)
Hahaha!

Soo Jin Lee (11:46)
You don’t know them, but I know them.

Ariel Landrum (11:46)
trading them. Like trading cards, right? Like, no, I want that one or I want that one. Okay, but only if I can have this one.

Stefanie Bautista (11:48)
I know. Oh yeah.

Soo Jin Lee (11:53)
I love it. I think like I love how we’re starting to talk about the bond that Mei Mei Mei Mei has, you know, in the friendship that Mei Mei Mei Mei has in the, in the movie. And I was relating so hard to it. Um, how like it almost felt like that boy band was necessary for the friendship because we have something to like root forward to be passionate about together, like put out our, our puberty energy into somewhere. And the boy band was perfect for that.

Stefanie Bautista (11:59)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (11:59)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (12:10)
Right.

Ariel Landrum (12:11)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (12:15)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (12:18)
Uh huh.

Soo Jin Lee (12:20)
And so I was relating so hard on the movie for that.

Stefanie Bautista (12:24)
And I think one of the really like outstanding parts of the movie is just the juxtaposition between her loving the band and the fandom, but also loving her family, who is a very real thing for her and essentially being a fan of her family. Because as they say, when they’re doing the temple tour, they say, oh, we don’t worship a god, we pray to our ancestors. And those are people who had existed in the past. And her

Ariel Landrum (12:35)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (12:48)
loving that and loving the band. I feel like there were parallels but also in such different ways. So I’m wondering, you know, for you all, like, were there elements of the movie that spoke to you that were kind of parallels like that?

Ariel Landrum (12:53)
Yes.

Soo Jin Lee (12:59)
I think one of the things that, well, for me, that part was actually very distant because I was so separated from my family. When I immigrated here, my parents, my dad specifically didn’t have a very good relationship with his family and my mom didn’t have as much of a connection and communication as much as she wanted to with her family back home either. And so it was just me, my brother, my mom and dad here in the States. And…

Stefanie Bautista (13:07)
Mmm.

Soo Jin Lee (13:24)
all of our relatives were back home. And so one of the things that I felt like I was always missing in my life was that connection and that family, like sense of family. Every single holiday, it was just the four of us and I just hated it because every time I would come back to school and all the kids would talk about these like extravagant like Thanksgiving meals that they would have with like relatives and friends and all of that, right? And Christmas even.

Stefanie Bautista (13:26)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (13:50)
But for me, it was just the four of us. And I wanted to have like a party, right? I wanted to have these extravagant parties. And I also missed it from like back home too, because like Lunar New Year is such a big, big celebration back in Korea for us. And I would have all of my relatives get together at my grandma’s house. And we would make these little dumpling-like.

Ariel Landrum (14:00)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (14:10)
rice cakes and they would have all these sweet stuff in it and it was my favorite thing to make, of course, because it’s a sweet treat, but also because it’s a huge gathering for us. Right? And so when Mei Mei in the movie was just having these like moments of like connection with the family, I almost felt like the inner child in me was like, Oh, I missed that. I missed my opportunity to feel connected with my relatives, ancestors.

Ariel Landrum (14:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Stefanie Bautista (14:30)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (14:35)
the way that I could have been brought up if I lived back home. And so there was a little bit of a sense of grief that I was feeling when I was watching the movie.

Ariel Landrum (14:41)
Yes.

Okay, okay. No, I really resonate with that. My mother and father divorced when I was really young and my mom is the one who is Filipina. And so I remember only like a very little bit of my heritage and then we would move around a lot. And there were a lot of places that we lived that, I was the only.

Asian person, let alone person of color at one point in the town. I’ve talked about this a few times on the podcast, but what it meant was that my, you know, white dad who was not used to cooking was the one who learned how to make a turkey for Thanksgiving. And he had to go to the like the public library and like print out a recipe book and read how to make a turkey. And it also meant that we had like mashed potatoes.

Stefanie Bautista (15:20)
Hmm. Aww.

Ariel Landrum (15:24)
But he burnt the gravy never again. So we’ve never had Thanksgiving with gravy and mashed potatoes. And we also had no diverse foods until we moved to Guam. And I made friends with different Chamorro families, different Filipino families. And they would bring us plates.

And so that’s how I’ve stayed connected with those friends, like even till now, because they created family for me that I know I was craving at the time, but wasn’t really having, and really appreciate my dad’s efforts and as much as he was willing to like try. But I know that was like not easy being a single dad raising two kids.

Stefanie Bautista (15:48)
Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (15:58)
And I resonate with not having that connection with the film and wanting that connection. Now, in my relationship with Stef, I’ve learned to be appreciative of my ancestors. I’ve learned more about my culture. And so I think that has really helped me being able to reclaim what I didn’t get to in childhood.

Stefanie Bautista (16:15)
I love that. It seems like a lot of this movie was therapeutic for all of us. Linda, did you have any like initial reactions to like the relationship she has with her family and like how that parallels with you?

Soo Jin Lee (16:19)
for sure.

Linda (16:26)
Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, I feel like I’m kind of echoing too. Like I’m also an immigrant. We’re a nuclear family and back home in Korea. I mean, home is here too for me now. Been here more than I’ve been in America longer than I have been in Korea now. But like my family had a very tight relationship. We celebrate all the holidays. We saw them at least every other week.

Stefanie Bautista (16:34)
Mmm.

Linda (16:49)
So being separated, just being us, like we stopped celebrating a lot of holidays, right? The traditions that we used to do with a bigger family. So looking at Mei Mei really having the connection definitely like made me feel grief as well. But also kind of looking at her and her mother’s relationship, I think I resonated a lot. It’s…

Ariel Landrum (17:09)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (17:09)
Mei Mei had so much responsibility, right? That she took on and like she had pride in it too, right? Pride in it, but also it becomes a little burden sometimes and try to navigate balance those responsibility, who she is, when she’s home, when she’s at school, right? Like I definitely resonated watching that.

Stefanie Bautista (17:30)
Yeah, I think that makes me think of the one line where she goes, Oh, I can’t go karaoke because today is cleaning day. And her friends like every day is cleaning day. So what’s the difference?

Ariel Landrum (17:38)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (17:39)
Hahaha

Soo Jin Lee (17:39)
You

That’s right, that’s right.

Stefanie Bautista (17:42)
And it’s so true. I mean, like, I feel like in Asian households, like we take cleanliness to another level, but then, you know, having to translate that to our friends now, you know, in American, or friends that, you know, aren’t familiar with our cultures and practices, just having them understand that is kind of like a language in itself. Because I know for myself, when I hear my students talk amongst each other and like they talk about their home life, it’s really interesting to see how they

Soo Jin Lee (17:47)
This one.

Yeah.

Stefanie Bautista (18:08)
like say it and how they project that out loud. Because for them, it’s a lived experience, but in order to explain it to somebody, especially like for little, little kids, it’s so cute for them to be happy and be so proud of what they do at home. So, as therapists, I know that you guys talk to a lot of different types of people. Have you noticed any sort of code switching that happens when you’re talking to your clients, kind of like,

the type of code switching that Mei Mei was doing.

Soo Jin Lee (18:36)
I think initially as a beginner therapist, there was a lot more of the code switching that happens. But as the time goes, I see myself being more and more integrative. And maybe that’s kind of the essentially what Mei Mei comes to terms with as well, right? It’s like, I can’t do this anymore. Like the separation of the two lives that she had to live was just too much burdensome. And it bursts into like this monster anyways, right?

Ariel Landrum (18:53)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Soo Jin Lee (19:03)
that is unrecognizable, but then she ends up embracing it all. And so I think we also learned to embrace ourselves more and more in the therapeutic setting as therapists too. And I think I’ve learned to do that more because I started to work a lot more with the Asian and Asian American folks. So before I was serving a lot more of people that were of all sorts of culture, all colors, all different backgrounds, and then more and more as the anti-Asian.

Stefanie Bautista (19:27)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (19:30)
hate crime was on the rise in the pandemic. The people that were finding me were finding me and Linda and our practice specifically because they wanted to work with identity issues pertaining to Asian or Asian American identity. So that made me reflect a lot more than I had ever before, right, with my clients. So it was kind of this parallel journey of integration, I feel like of.

of not exactly separating myself, but more of how can I bring more of myself into the table? Because at the end of the day, what we were experiencing, I can’t say that I have come through with it. We were experiencing it at the same time, right? In the same place. And no one had figured it out how to heal from it yet. And we’re still trying to figure out how to heal from it together as a community. And so I’ve really embraced how to be a therapist, but also how to

Ariel Landrum (20:08)
Hmm?

Stefanie Bautista (20:08)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (20:19)
Okay.

Soo Jin Lee (20:20)
all the different elements of what my community has to offer to me too.

Linda (20:25)
Yeah, I think also the world of how we see mental health, how we think about therapy has evolved as well. When we were in school, there was not much of a… There was not much focus on cultural consideration as much, right? There were, but not a lot. And now we’re looking at more different lenses that how can we…

Ariel Landrum (20:41)
Yes.

Stefanie Bautista (20:43)
Hmm

Linda (20:49)
honor, like not just the client, I used to be more client focused. And it should be still, but like that we cannot deny us as a therapist is also influencing the room, you know, who we are, our identity, our background, like how does it play out? And like how that relationship can work because that play factor in everything in the relationship. So

Ariel Landrum (21:03)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (21:09)
I think that got us more comfortable. Like, hey, like we are not a blank state. That’s just impossible. We need to recognize who we are, our background and how does that show up? And then how does it show up with the client and then how does that play? I think that really, that evolve-ness of how we see therapy and mental health helped, right? So we don’t have to feel like we have to hide ourselves when we are in therapy room as well. Like I remember,

Ariel Landrum (21:14)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (21:15)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (21:33)
I think it’s a funny story because it’s me in high school and when someone asked me out, hey, you know, hang out, you know, like, we’re gonna grab dinner on Thursday night and I’ll be like, no, it’s school night. And then they will have no idea what I’m talking about. Like what do you mean school night? I can’t go out. Like I’m not allowed to. And some of the things I…

Stefanie Bautista (21:45)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (21:56)
Definitely when you’re younger, you have family, right? Like, Mei Mei, like, you have to go back to your parents. You have to play, settle rules, right? It’s harder now as an adult, married, you know, like, separate life, have a separate family. Like, I have more room, right? Of course, when I see my parents, I do see myself a little bit like, oh yeah, there’s a little bit of switching. Like, I have to be certain way, say certain things, and not as much as I used to, because I’m not under their roof, and I’m not…

Stefanie Bautista (22:02)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (22:03)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (22:22)
Like they don’t have my life as much anymore, but those things. So, you know, I’m sure we tell our teens sometimes too, like, hey, like it gets easier, you know, when you are becoming more independent and that’s kind of what we often help our teens, you know, helping them achieve that independent, also educating parents, like, hey, like it’s a development and then how do we integrate that? So, yeah.

Stefanie Bautista (22:24)
Hehehe

Yes.

Ariel Landrum (22:42)
Now, I think it’s really interesting. We’ve already sort of intersected the fact that we’re talking about mental health. And of course, that is part of the themes of the podcast. But also, May is Mental Health Awareness Month, as it is also AANHPI Heritage Month. I’m curious with that intersection, did you see that in the movie in Mei Mei? Because I saw a lot of anxiety, and I did see a lot of perfectionism. Did that resonate with any of you?

Linda (23:06)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (23:07)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (23:08)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (23:09)
for sure, that perfectionism and the pressure, especially with the relationship that she has with her mom and the way that she wants to live up to that standard, is something that I was relating so hard to. And I think a lot of people that are coming into therapy for are relating to as well. We have this need, and I think especially speaking for myself, like being an immigrant and

having that experience of actually knowing and experiencing and witnessing the exact things that my parents have given up, because I know what my life looked like before we came here. I have vivid memories of them. And then to know what they have given up to be here, right? That sacrifice and to need to make up for that sacrifice somehow, right? That lingering pressure that I was living with all the time. I felt that anxiety.

Ariel Landrum (23:44)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (23:58)
and to also have to hide a part of myself, right? That’s a huge, huge theme in Mei Mei’s life, right? Like I became this thing that I’m trying to adapt to, and yet I still have to hide myself. And it seems unavoidable that people are gonna see me, but I’m trying my best to hide myself anyways, right? And so…

So that juxtaposition, I feel like, is something that was very relatable in the movie too.

Linda (24:23)
Yeah, perfectionism, a lot of anxiety. Definitely felt like I’m looking at all my childhood growing up. Like as Soo Jin said, like layer of being a child immigrants and being immigrant yourself.

in a lot of pressure. They will remind us, like we moved, my dad chose to take the job in the US instead of Korea because he knew there will be a lot more opportunity for us. This American dream that our family bought in. So there was a lot of pressure to perform well, be perfect, be obedient, get good grades.

Stefanie Bautista (24:50)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (24:58)
but also follow rules in the home, right? Not let go of that tradition, like not let go of the cultural aspects of it. Like do well in American school that is completely different in our culture from us. So that puts a lot of anxiety and a lot of perfectionism for sure.

Stefanie Bautista (25:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, like she loves her things so hard. She loves Fourtown so hard. She loves her friends so hard. She loves, you know, everything that she is so hard. But like, I think when you’re dealing with being second generation and not having to sacrifice those things, that translates differently to our parents. Right. Because like you said, Linda, they sacrificed a lot to make a whole nother living for their family.

Whereas as a teenager, we’re just trying to understand who we are as people and who we are as women and Asian American women and how do we fit into society and how do we become like the best part of ourselves. And I think the visual of a red panda was so fitting because she’s not threatening even though she has big emotions.

Ariel Landrum (26:01)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (26:01)
but she’s large in size and you cannot avoid it because she is just, you know, her personality is everywhere. Like who we are and who we kind of craft ourselves to be, especially during this age, I feel like it’s so amplified because the emotions are so intense. I look at some of the middle schoolers, even though they try to hide behind dark clothes, putting their hoods up.

Ariel Landrum (26:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (26:25)
like trying to blend in with everybody, you can’t hide the fact that they have big emotions too. So that eventually comes out and I think we definitely see that in Mei Mei’s story because she is grappling with that dual identity and like saying, who do I go with? Do I have to choose a side or can I just be everything all at once? Which is also a really great Asian American film.

Linda (26:29)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (26:44)
Yeah, but outside of just like the cultural piece too, just like going through puberty, right? And during that time, everything feels so big anyways. And the expression of those big emotions and all the bodily changes that are happening, it seems like what you said Stefanie of that big red panda, like it feels so

Ariel Landrum (26:44)
I’m sorry.

Stefanie Bautista (26:51)
Yes.

Ariel Landrum (26:52)
Hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (26:56)
Hmm?

Ariel Landrum (27:03)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (27:08)
so much more apparent to us. And it feels like it’s so grand to us visually, right? And that we can’t contain it.

Stefanie Bautista (27:13)
Mm-hmm.

Hehehe

Ariel Landrum (27:16)
I’m curious, how would you use that metaphor of a red panda in session or in the classroom setting? Because the theory that I use is narrative therapy. We love metaphor, like that is the best. So the red panda for like weeks I was using with clients and it became the template for every metaphor that ever was and ever will be. Curious, was that the same for any of you or did you come up with ideas later?

Stefanie Bautista (27:34)
Hehehe

Soo Jin Lee (27:41)
I think it was for me mostly the clients themselves bringing it in. So the clients relating to it, especially the younger clients, or even older folks too of our age group, to be able to say, you know what, I watched the movie. And when they bring it up for us to be able to talk about it and utilize that. And all the symbolism that we just talked about were things that they would bring up, right? That the

the emotions that even they currently are feeling and dealing with, that they feel like it’s the red panda. And we can just name that now, right? Like, okay, we just named this huge emotion that feels ambiguous, but we don’t know how to pinpoint into exactly a word, that’s the red panda, here it is. And we can embrace it, because that’s the whole story, is that we wanna embrace it, and we don’t wanna neglect it.

Stefanie Bautista (28:13)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (28:19)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (28:23)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (28:26)
And because of the movie’s narrative, I think people were able to capture that and being able to say, okay, I’m gonna embrace it.

Stefanie Bautista (28:33)
Linda how about you.

Linda (28:34)
Yeah, during pandemic, our, I think, Soo Jin too, like our demographic of clientele has changed. I think before then, we were working a lot with kids and families and telehealth was really hard with kids. Not all, but you know, most kids.

Stefanie Bautista (28:52)
Yeah. I bet.

Linda (28:55)
and then we were serving a lot of ADHD so can you imagine trying to do telehealth with ADHD kids? So I feel like if I watched this movie while I was still have a lot of children in my case, I definitely would have. I mean we definitely have used other movies, animated movies, in their patients but yeah so I feel like I missed some of the opportunities if we could have used it right but I mean there were still adults bringing it up.

Stefanie Bautista (29:10)
Yeah.

Linda (29:19)
And it was such a big deal when the movie came out. Like we all loved it. It felt so validating presented in a way that more authentic way than ever. That’s why people related the movie was so popular. So yeah, a lot of clients were bringing it up. We were talking about it in our staff meeting too, like how we’re relating to Mei Mei and then what are some lessons that come from it and then how can we.

like use the metaphors or the stories in our lives.

Stefanie Bautista (29:47)
Yeah, I think I find it more when relating to my peers at work as opposed to the children we deal with. Because I work in mostly TK through fifth grade settings. We have two middle schools, but I don’t tap into those unless it’s like sports. So this wouldn’t be the movie to do it. But I was talking to a colleague yesterday about our conversation that we were going to have today about Turning Red. And he taught middle school in Arizona.

Ariel Landrum (30:02)
Mm. Heh heh heh.

Stefanie Bautista (30:12)
And he said he showed the movie after the pandemic when everybody was in school. And he actually got reprimanded for it because it addressed puberty and it addressed things that he was, they said, oh, I don’t know if parents are gonna be on board with this. I don’t know, maybe you should have asked permission first. And he was just like, what are you talking about? There’s so less that I have to say as a male and so much that me just loving this movie and me just loving Mei Mei’s story.

like would resonate with kids that I don’t even have to explain about. And so I was shocked to hear that his administration was not on board with him showing the movie. I know for myself, we talk about Fourtown and Turning Red with the kids and they love the visual if like, like we don’t really have a strict dress code at my school, so we’ll wear like a Fourtown shirt or we’ll wear like, you know, Turning Red and the kids love like identifying that with us. But.

Yeah, it was really surprising for me to hear that he was, you know, they didn’t want him showing that movie because it’s such a great case study, I feel.

Soo Jin Lee (31:11)
Yeah, that makes me feel so sad. And of all things, it’s just it’s at the end of the day, a Disney movie.

Ariel Landrum (31:12)
Yes.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yes.

Stefanie Bautista (31:17)
Yeah, it really doesn’t go there. I mean, we could talk about books like 1984 and these literary cornerstones that they say we have to, Lord of the Flies, but you won’t show up in a movie about a panda. Ha ha.

Linda (31:19)
me also.

Soo Jin Lee (31:22)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (31:22)
No.

Ariel Landrum (31:22)
laughs

Soo Jin Lee (31:27)
Right.

Linda (31:30)
We can’t, I mean, we all go through puberty. That’s the craziest thing. Like, I, like, I barely got any sex ed in my school because our school is pretty conservative and, like, I felt very uneducated when I got older. Like, we have Asian American clients coming up to us, like who…

Ariel Landrum (31:30)
Yeah.

Yes.

Stefanie Bautista (31:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (31:41)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Linda (31:52)
grew up very religiously, conservative, was a conservative parent, never had a conversation and they’re having so much trouble. And then the movie wasn’t like, it didn’t really, it touched a little bit, like that how, we don’t talk about it, right? That’s crazy.

Ariel Landrum (31:55)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. It’s interesting, because even in talking about metaphor, the red panda comes when she has puberty, right? That’s when it’s introduced in her life. And even the parents started being shocked, like, oh, this seems sooner than we thought. I’ve definitely heard that conversation with parents and those who menstruate. And then, again, I was raised with a single dad. He didn’t know anything about periods at all.

Stefanie Bautista (32:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (32:29)
And he had to try and teach me how to like choose tampons and pads. It was uncomfortable for him. And thank goodness we had the Internet. He found this website of these like cartoon people. And there was a guy in a robot that teach you about your body. And so a viewer wrote in asking about menstruating and he’s like, Oh, I don’t know about this. And he and the robot like transition it to this girl and this, I guess, girl robot. And they talked about it. And that’s how he taught me.

Stefanie Bautista (32:52)
Oh my gosh.

Ariel Landrum (32:53)
And then he like read the instructions in the back of the cardboard box, you know, very military, like, OK, first you do this and then you do this. And then you do it was formulaic. But I mean, it made me not afraid to have this conversation with other guys. And it was definitely a red flag tester. It’s like you’re going to freak out about the fact that I menstruate. We probably don’t need to be together.

Stefanie Bautista (32:56)
I’m sorry.

Soo Jin Lee (33:12)
Yeah, for sure. That, that, um, I, kudos to your dad, like really for trying, because I just, that scene in the movie as well, where Mei Mei, Ming, like the mom refers to, are you having, you know, are you, are you having a period or are you blooming for the first time or something, right? That scene, and you see the dad just slowly disappearing into the corner.

Stefanie Bautista (33:13)
Yeah, and that’s…

Yeah.

Yes.

Ariel Landrum (33:30)
Yeah.

Stefanie Bautista (33:34)
What?

Ariel Landrum (33:34)
I’m sorry.

Such a scary concept.

Soo Jin Lee (33:36)
And I was like, yeah, the gender role and, you know, who should be talking about what?

Stefanie Bautista (33:41)
Yeah, I do like and appreciate how the dad was the cook in the family, because I know that’s not addressed in many familial situations, especially when it comes to Disney and very mainstream portrayals of family. Because a lot of Asian American families, the mom is the matriarch.

Ariel Landrum (33:49)
Yes.

Stefanie Bautista (33:57)
She holds it down. She’s the one who, you know, sets all the rules and things like that. And a lot of the times the dad is the one who’s cooking and, you know, just like providing in the background. It’s not always, you know, one or the other. So I really did appreciate that he would always have a plate of bao for her whenever she was feeling sad or, you know, he was the one to listen to her when, you know, she was at her lowest point. So I do appreciate that. And, you know, they, they mattered too.

Ariel Landrum (34:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (34:22)
Yeah, yeah, they do. And I think it also speaks to the way that our parents tried to display love to us. Like, it looks very different. And we talk a lot about this with our clients and community members, too, of like, food is our love language. So sometimes, you know, they don’t know how to talk about how we feel or what we’re going through. But you can really depend that there will be a beautifully set up meal at the end of the day. And that just goes.

Ariel Landrum (34:29)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (34:30)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Soo Jin Lee (34:48)
feels very comforting to come back home to after a hard day.

Stefanie Bautista (34:52)
Yeah, it’s the constant, right?

Ariel Landrum (34:52)
Yeah, I, well, I think a part of it is even talking about it being a AANHPI Heritage Month, is that the individuals who created the film, not only is it center the story of Asian Canadian diaspora girl, but the individuals who wrote the story, they themselves are diaspora.

I believe it’s pronounced Domee Shi. She’s Chinese, born Canadian. And then Julia Cho is a Korean-American playwright. And because we’re kind of in the entertainment capital, we are in Los Angeles, what do you think that this Pixar film did correct in representation? Because I think it did a lot correct. And I think it’s because it was written from the perspective of lived experience and not from what I think it looks like.

Stefanie Bautista (35:38)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (35:38)
I think one of the things that I really loved, I think Stefanie, you had mentioned this, is the dynamic of the family, right? It’s rarely shown in a lot of the films how an Asian family can look really different, like how the dad is a cook in the house sometimes and not the mom, but also mom is the one that is taking care of the temple, taking care of the almost like the financial situations.

Stefanie Bautista (35:56)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (36:02)
And actually that tends to be very true in my own family households too, where my mom, in order for her to be a good wife, she had to learn how to book keep. And that was the job of the woman, the job of the wife. So that when the husband brings home the money, he’s the maker of the money. But at the end of the day, how that gets utilized is actually the mom. And so I think the different dynamic of what it looks like in of

a woman and a man in a household for a family in an Asian household can look really different. So that was really displayed well. And then the, of course, just that the passion that Mei Mei has and the desire that Mei Mei has to fit in is something that we all have experienced, that sense of belonging and trying to like really fit into the society, either whether that’s home or in the school place.

Stefanie Bautista (36:37)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (36:50)
where we’re constantly changing ourselves in order for us to fit in, right? And so that’s something that is an experience that we all have.

Stefanie Bautista (36:57)
I think for myself, what I think they nailed were the aunties, because I feel like everybody has a group of aunties that either will just breathe down your neck all the time, but they also are comprised of different sorts of women. And as for myself, not all of my aunts had children. So I knew that, you know, you didn’t have to have a bunch of kids or, you know, have a family.

Ariel Landrum (37:01)
Hahaha

Soo Jin Lee (37:01)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (37:02)
I have to go.

Soo Jin Lee (37:09)
So true.

Linda (37:12)
Thank you.

Stefanie Bautista (37:20)
to be successful and to make a living. But because they had such different dynamics, I knew that my mother wasn’t the only role model that I could go to. I can always go to my aunt who was like the same as my mom, but different. And they all had different lived experiences because they all work abroad in different countries. So I think seeing the dynamics of Mei Mei’s aunties and how they were.

all similar but different and she was able to connect with them in different ways, I felt like that was spot on because you know, the aunties they will tell you like it is. They don’t have a filter.

Ariel Landrum (37:50)
I’m sorry.

Soo Jin Lee (37:51)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (37:53)
Yeah, I really resonate with what Soo Jin and Stefanie already have pointed out. Aunties and family dynamics and something that stayed with me that felt like, you know, as a therapist too, kind of pointing out is that like that generational trauma or strength that we pass down on, right? How that gets passed on.

Ariel Landrum (38:09)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (38:13)
Oh, whether it’s good or bad or, you know, neutral, um, that exists. And then I felt like that really did point out that.

Ariel Landrum (38:20)
I think for me, I really like that part of how Mei Mei chose her red panda was sometimes she would have ears and a tail. Because that’s how I think of like my experience is like the wanting to be a half cat person. Drawing myself as like in some sort of animal or where I’m like a human animal hybrid. I don’t know why. But that to me is like the epitome of like representing.

Stefanie Bautista (38:28)
Hehehehe

Ha ha ha.

Ariel Landrum (38:44)
like Asian diaspora experience is this like integration of like what would be sort of like anime and certainly when we had the dad cooking and the food scene it was like the big kawaii eyes and the slowing down and the food sort of like magically doing things like that felt so right and was also so

Stefanie Bautista (38:51)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Soo Jin Lee (39:02)
Mm.

Ariel Landrum (39:02)
easily integrated in the film. It wasn’t, it didn’t feel like an afterthought. It didn’t feel like something just thrown in there to appease a certain audience. Like again, I think because of the lived experience, it was so natural and easy to put that in there and make it feel very authentic to the film. So yeah, I resonated with that. I don’t know how many times I’ve walked a con with just like ears and a tail.

Stefanie Bautista (39:21)
I’m sorry.

Soo Jin Lee (39:24)
Yeah, I love that.

Linda (39:24)
Thank you.

Stefanie Bautista (39:26)
Yeah, and I like how you mentioned that you could tell it was lived experience because sometimes when I was watching a movie, it wasn’t like I was watching Toy Story or Monsters Inc or any other Pixar movie. I felt like sometimes I was watching K-drama or J-drama. Sometimes I feel like I was watching a K-Pop concert or a J-Pop concert. Sometimes I felt like I was watching anime because of the way that they were styling things and different perspectives. It definitely felt much more…

Soo Jin Lee (39:33)
Hmm.

Ariel Landrum (39:37)
Hehehe

Stefanie Bautista (39:49)
dynamic from an Asian lens and that’s why it felt very comfortable to watch it because all of these themes and visuals were so familiar with, you know, the glossy eyes and like the really big emotions. Like I was half expecting to see subtitles half the time because, you know, I mean not that I was already watching with subtitles because I always watch everything with subtitles, but you know, like I think the stylization and the animation itself was, you know, very appropriate and so different.

Ariel Landrum (40:03)
I’m sorry.

true.

Yes.

And I think even like representation, her friend group wasn’t homogenous. And I think that, at least for me, that resonates as both diaspora and being a military brat. Like you just moved around a lot and you made friends with a very diverse group of individuals. And even the scene in the bathroom where she’s like pushing that one girl into the bathroom and she has an insulin pump, right? Like this small moment of representation, I think that

Soo Jin Lee (40:21)
Yeah.

Stefanie Bautista (40:21)
Mm-hmm.

Soo Jin Lee (40:29)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (40:40)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (40:42)
Again, I’ve seen insulin pumps in the community groups that I hang out with other Asian diaspora. And so I don’t know how her intentionality in the creator’s intentionality and putting those things in there, how much it was like in the forefront of like must represent. Because to me it felt like, oh, that makes sense. That’s natural. That would be there. It didn’t feel like a box being checked off.

Stefanie Bautista (41:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I mean, with all of this, I know we touched on a lot of different things about, you know, being part of the diaspora, having all of these lived experiences. For Soo Jin and Linda, I know you co-authored the book, Where I Belong, Healing Traum and Embracing Asian American Identity. I know that you have talked to a myriad of people who identify as such. Is, you know, watching Turning Red, do you think there’s space to have now more conversations about

other kind of enclaves and other different intersectionalities now that we’ve kind of broken through and talked about, you know, what it is to be Chinese Canadian. What would you like to see from Disney, knowing that you have such a wide range of experiences now talking to different people?

Soo Jin Lee (41:46)
I can’t say if there’s one specific thing, but for sure, the people that we were interviewing and have included a bunch of stories in our book, our book consists of mostly stories and people love reading our book because of that. You get to have all of these different experiences that are represented in the book under the umbrella of whoever is identifying themselves as Asian or Asian American. Because in the book, some people are…

Stefanie Bautista (42:00)
Yep.

Soo Jin Lee (42:11)
claiming and saying, you know, I don’t really feel like I’m Asian American. I don’t like that title for myself. I’m Asian. Right. So in a lot of ways, like there are so many different experiences in the way that we even claim the term Asian American. And so I would love to see more of these intersectional identity pieces of work, because I think that’s what is more representative of us now more than ever is the intersectionality of.

Stefanie Bautista (42:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Soo Jin Lee (42:36)
different parts of all of our identities and work.

Linda (42:39)
Just literally adding to what Soo Jin said, you know, that Asians are not monolith. And that’s something that we really want to illustrate. We don’t even, the way we include people’s stories is, you know, for us to not to tell people what Asian American experience is, but how people have opportunity to, like, illustrate, show their own Asian American story, because it’s such a diverse

group of people that we are just a seven to one big category, right? And then, you know, we can go beyond just talking about what is an Asian American, but what are other identities we have? We are different. We are diverse, you know, we get to celebrate every identities within Asian American category as well.

Stefanie Bautista (43:22)
Hmm.

Ariel Landrum (43:22)
I’ve been listening to the book on audio, which is a very different experience than reading the book. And, uh,

A part of it is like the stories really come to life for me when I’m hearing it in audio form. But at the end of each chapter, there is always sort of like a journal prompt, an exploration prompt. What for the two of you, what is that how you naturally work? Is that did that naturally unfold itself? How did you conceptualize the ways in which you broke these stories up and how you integrate it to the reader?

Linda (43:50)
We initially, how we came to have the book is based on our support groups that we used to run Asian American Experience Group. That was kind of basis of the book content. So we have added, you know, taken out, added as, you know, we got feedbacks and we have evolved with our groups. But we really want to make reading the book or I guess hearing the book.

Ariel Landrum (44:00)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (44:11)
and experience of being in a support community group. Knowing that you’re not alone, that other people’s stories can be reflected in your life or you can learn how the depth of Asian American community is. And we had a call, so we had some stories in our mind that we knew from our community members, that we have asked, or we also had kind of call out to people like, hey, we’re writing a book.

And if you like to share your story to be included, we’d love to. And then like we’ve got many, like hundreds of submissions. And initially it was a little overwhelming, but since we have themes that we have identified, right? So we, after we did interview, people submit their stories, we will try to fit in like what stories goes into different themes. I mean, sometimes there are multiple themes that are presented in the stories, which is, you know, often that’s how it is. we want to kind of…

Ariel Landrum (44:42)
Yeah.

Linda (44:59)
unfold people’s stories and have our education and unpacking and the journal prompts and then exercises surrounding the story instead of the other way around. Usually that’s, you know, that’s textbook, right? We didn’t want to be a textbook. We really wanted to be a story of the community. So that’s how we went about it.

Soo Jin Lee (45:17)
And so it’s not exactly the way that we would say do individual therapeutic work, but this is how we would love for our support group and community group to continue to look like that. There’s an element of your identity being reflected off of other people.

and other people’s experiences, you hear them, you listen, and you get to have a chance of reflecting your own identity. And oftentimes, people didn’t know how to go about doing that. And we needed to make sure that there were exercises that can support that. And because we’re talking about trauma and intergenerational trauma issues, that there were a lot of grounding exercises. That way, there are tools that people can take with them as they’re doing these journaling

if things are coming up for them that they can ground themselves.

Stefanie Bautista (45:59)
Yeah, and I think that’s what I love about the book is that it’s so interactive. And not only is it dynamic storytelling, but you are self reflecting at the same time you’re reading it. I’m curious to know, I know writing a book is a daunting task. Did the process evolve from the beginning to the middle to the end? Did you have like a roadmap? Because I can only imagine, you know.

what that roller coaster of not just emotions, but also workflow is like for, you know, co-authors.

Linda (46:26)
Maybe we will have a better idea if we were to write other books. It was our first book. We didn’t intend to write the book. It was something that one of our attendees for the group, really loved the group and then shared that with her friend who happened to be a literary agent. And the literary agent contacted us saying that, hey, what you’re doing should be a book. So we kind of went about…

Stefanie Bautista (46:31)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (46:47)
Yeah.

Stefanie Bautista (46:48)
Yeah.

Linda (46:49)
other way around than instead of us like, Oh, we want to write a book and then let’s have it published, right? So we took on the project because we knew there was so much lack of resources. And like, we want to write a book that we needed ourselves and then for

Stefanie Bautista (46:53)
Right.

Ariel Landrum (46:55)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (47:08)
It’s not a therapist book, it’s not a clinic book, but it’s something that can be accessible for anyone who’s looking for resources, right? But then we had a lot of ideas, but I’m also diagnosed with ADHD. I had a really hard time. Soo Jin definitely was able to organize things a little bit better and then kind of like did the outline for us to know what I have to fit into where.

Stefanie Bautista (47:13)
Mm-hmm.

Linda (47:30)
But it has been such a roller coaster of like writing, deleting, rewriting. I wrote like five pages, but does it even fit anywhere? Right? Or am I rambling?

Ariel Landrum (47:40)
Yes.

Stefanie Bautista (47:41)
No.

Soo Jin Lee (47:43)
Yeah.

Linda (47:44)
we learned a lot. But it definitely could have been more structured now to think about it. I’m very chaotic.

Ariel Landrum (47:49)
I’m going to go.

Stefanie Bautista (47:51)
I’m sorry.

Soo Jin Lee (47:52)
I mean, non-writers trying to write an entire book, we’re just like, we have so much to say about this subject matter. And so we just started writing. And I think that was kind of our, maybe it worked out in our favor too, but to us, it felt like suffering because we’re just writing and writing and writing. And we’re like, wait, okay, how does this fit into the book again? And we’re like, oh, we scratch that. It doesn’t. So there were.

Ariel Landrum (47:54)
I’m going to go to bed.

Stefanie Bautista (47:55)
Ha ha ha.

Wow.

Ariel Landrum (48:07)
Ha!

Stefanie Bautista (48:09)
I’m sorry.

Linda (48:15)
Yeah, the most feedback that we got from our editor was that like, hey, this is too long. Like, this is too long. This is too long. Hahaha.

Ariel Landrum (48:20)
Yeah.

Soo Jin Lee (48:20)
I’m sorry.

Stefanie Bautista (48:23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know we talked in a previous episode about the hardest part of writing is editing, especially when you’re self-editing, because in your brain, everything is important. And, you know, of course, everything is important. There’s so much information that’s valuable that somebody out there is going to benefit from. But when you’re trying to condense it into something that is digestible, that’s where…

Ariel Landrum (48:28)
Mm.

Stefanie Bautista (48:43)
the work is put in. But I mean, I think you guys did it beautifully. I enjoy reading it. I went through it nightly before, after I put my kids to bed. It was such a good grounding piece for me. And hearing other people’s stories were so beautiful. So I think the end product, you wouldn’t even have known it was chaotic. You could have just said, we meant for it to be like this, and I would have 100% believed you.

Ariel Landrum (48:47)
Yes.

I’m sorry.

Yes, 100%.

Soo Jin Lee (49:05)
Thank you.

Ariel Landrum (49:05)
Well, where can people access, purchase your book, and where can people find the two of you if they are wanting to learn more about the support groups that you offer or therapy sessions that you offer?

Linda (49:16)
The book information and any book event coming up can be found on WhereIBelongTheBook.com is the website for the book. For our work, we are co-directors of Yellow Chair Collective. That’s where we do most of our support, community groups, and therapy services. That is YellowChairCollective.com We also have a nonprofit, Entwine Community.

where we focus on training future therapists and also providing pro bono low fee services for mainly Asian American community. And that is EntwineCommunity.org

Ariel Landrum (49:47)
Okay, okay.

Stefanie Bautista (49:48)
And I know you are all in different cities at different times. Is your book tour ending at a certain time or are you gonna continuously promote the book for the rest of the year?

Linda (49:58)
Our next event is on May 11th, and we will be in National Mall of Asian Museum. We will have a book event in their AAPI Heritage Month celebration.

at the museum and we are talking to New York bookstore about our next book event. So there are certain and Chicago, we also are talking to a Chicago organization that want to invite us. So there are some certain things kind of coming up. So if somebody told us that book tours all year long thing. So it looks like it may be a all year long thing for us. Yeah.

Soo Jin Lee (50:29)
And I think we’ve also been doing more of online book engagements as well. And so if anyone wants to find us and learn more and join us in the online community too, we’ll continue to do that.

Ariel Landrum (50:34)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie Bautista (50:36)
Nice.

Ariel Landrum (50:40)
Okay, beautiful. Well, if you want to share with us your favorite boy band moment from your cringey childhood or how you’ve embraced your red panda, please DM us @HappiestPodGT. You can find us on Instagram and X/Twitter.

Thank you everyone, and I hope you all have a wonderful May.

Stefanie Bautista (50:57)
Yes. Thank you.

Yep. All right.

Soo Jin Lee (51:00)
Thank you!

Linda (51:02)
Thank you.

Media/Characters Mentioned
  • Pixar’s ‘Turning Red’
  • Mei Mei Lee
  • Ming Lee
  • 4*Town
  • Fourtown
  • Nsync
  • Backstreet Boys
  • Christina Aguilera
  • Britney Spears
  • One Direction
  • G.O.D. (K-Pop group)
  • SHINHWA (K-Pop group)
  • Super Junior (K-Pop group)
Topics/Themes Mentioned
  • Family and identity in Asian American contexts
  • Mental health: dealing with perfectionism and pressure
  • Impact of cultural expectations and code-switching
  • Representation and its significance in media
  • The role of community and shared experiences in personal growth
  • Intergenerational relationships and cultural transmission
  • Celebrating Asian American, Pacific Islander, and Native Hawaiian Heritage

| Website: happy.geektherapy.com |
| Instagram: @HappiestPodGT | X: @HappiestPodGT | Facebook: @HappiestPodGT |
| Stef on Twitter: @stefa_kneee | Ariel on Instagram: @airyell3000 |
| Soo Jin Lee on Instagram: @SooJinLee.MFT | Linda Yoon on Instagram: @LindaYoonTherapy |
| Yellow Chair Collective on Instagram: @YellowChairCollective |
| Website: https://yellowchaircollective.com/ | Website: https://entwinecommunity.org/ |
| Book Website: https://whereibelongthebook.com/ | Book: https://amzn.to/3UvScYf |

Geek Therapy is a 501(c)(3) non-profit that advocates for the effective and meaningful use of popular media in therapeutic, educational, and community practice.
| GT Facebook: @GeekTherapy | GT Twitter: @GeekTherapy |
| GT Forum: forum.geektherapy.com  | GT Discord: geektherapy.com/discord |

Galactic Celebrations: Star Wars Nite and Beyond

May 1, 2024 · Discuss on the GT Forum

https://media.blubrry.com/happypod/media.transistor.fm/963399ba/adc59efa.mp3

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40: Ariel and Stefanie delve into Star Wars, unpacking its cultural significance and impact as part of the May the 4th celebrations. Both hosts go on a journey through this monumental franchise’s legacy and ongoing influence. From Disneyland’s Star Wars Nite to personal connections with the franchise to practical applications of this IP in therapeutic and educational settings.

Summary

Summary of HPOE40:

  • 00:00 Introduction: Uniting Passions with Therapy and Education: Ariel and Stefanie introduce themselves, outlining how they use fandoms in their therapy and education practices.
  • 01:33 Star Wars Nite: Hits and Misses: Ariel recounts her recent experience at Disneyland’s Star Wars Nite, discussing the event’s organization and where it fell short.
  • 07:07 Main Street Magic: A Star Wars Immersive Experience: Insights into the immersive experiences at Disneyland during Star Wars Nite, focusing on themed meals and interactions.
  • 32:34 Season of the Force: A Special Journey on Space Mountain: Details on the special Star Wars-themed version of the Space Mountain ride, incorporating effects and music from the franchise.
  • 10:18 Engaging with the Galaxy: Star Wars Events and Their Impact: Discussion on various Star Wars-themed events, their impact on fans, and the use of Star Wars in therapy and education settings.
  • 21:11 May the 4th: Celebrating Star Wars Community and Culture: Reflections on the significance of May the 4th, celebrating community and culture through Star Wars, including thematic food and character interactions.
  • 32:58 Star Wars Across the City: Celebrating in Los Angeles: Discussion on Star Wars events in Los Angeles, including museum exhibitions and sporting events, showcasing how the franchise is celebrated beyond Disneyland.
  • 37:55 Educational Adventures: Star Wars in the Classroom: Discussion on how Star Wars themes are utilized in educational settings to engage and educate students on values and ethics.
  • 43:36 Conclusion: The Enduring Legacy of Star Wars: Summarizing the episode’s discussion, reflecting on the enduring impact of Star Wars on popular culture, therapy, and education.
Transcription

Ariel Landrum (00:00)
Hello everyone, welcome to Happiest Pod on Earth. I’m Ariel, a licensed therapist who uses clients’ passions and fandoms to help them grow and heal from trauma and mental illness.

Stefanie (00:09)
And I’m Stef I’m an educator who uses passions and fandoms to help my students grow and learn about themselves and the world around them. Here at Happiest Pod, we dissect Disney mediums with a critical lens.

Ariel Landrum (00:19)
Why? Because we are more than just fans and we expect more from the mediums we consume. So, Stef, what are we talking about today?

Stefanie (00:26)
Well, actually, this is a very big topic. we are heading into May. And one of the biggest things that us Disney fans celebrate in May is the season of the force. So we’re going to be talking about Star Wars today.

Ariel Landrum (00:37)
We have a celebration today. This is another story. Dun dun

Stefanie (00:42)
every time I think Star Wars, I think the Imperial March. So I’m always like, it’s just so much more iconic to me. It is not positive, but it’s a banger, as the kids say. So yes, it is season of the Force. So we’re talking about all things Star Wars. I know that there are very big Star Wars events happening.

Ariel Landrum (00:45)
Dun dun dun!

Hehe

Yeah.

Stefanie (01:01)
around the city and also maybe even across the country. Many people celebrate Star Wars in different ways and we will be talking about not only those events but also how we use Star Wars in our practices as well. Because I know that Star Wars being such an iconic staple in pop culture, it parallels a lot of different mythologies and different types of storytelling that both of us use to connect with our clients and our students.

Ariel Landrum (01:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Stefanie (01:25)
Ariel, I know that you just recently, like very recently, celebrated Star Wars in a big way. Can you tell us what you, experienced?

Ariel Landrum (01:33)
Absolutely. So we had Season of the Force at Disneyland and one of the events they had was one of their nighttime events and it was the Star Wars at Nite And I did that literally yesterday, last night. Didn’t get home until after midnight. The way the night events go is they go from 9 to 1 and you do get to go to the park at 6, so like two hours earlier than the event.

There were some things I definitely learned from this that I think we can apply to other night events. And then there were some misses, I think on the part of Disneyland. So.

Stefanie (02:01)
Mm-hmm.

I see. I am very curious. This is one After Dark event that you and I did not go to together. I didn’t get to go to Star Wars Nite I love the After Dark events, but as I am a mother, it is very hard for me to pry myself away from my little ones. I cannot wait until they get older so that I can experience these things with them, but I’m very curious to know your experience. I know the last time we talked about an After Dark event was Disney Channel Nite.

Ariel Landrum (02:11)
Mm-mm.

Mm-hmm.

I cannot wait until they get older.

Stefanie (02:28)
and we had a blast. It was so much fun and so dynamic that I’m kind of still riding on that high, if you will, of Disney Channel Nite because we’ve done other nights like Marriest Nites, Princess Nites, they have had their hits and misses. But yeah, I know you can listen to those other episodes to kind of get a run through of how everything goes, but

Ariel Landrum (02:29)
Mm-hmm.

It was so much fun and so dynamic that I’m kind of still riding on that high if you read of Disney Channel Night. Because we’ve had other nights, like Marius’ nights, and the movie nights, and we have had their hits and misses. But yeah, I know you can…

Stefanie (02:53)
I feel like Star Wars Nite is very equivalent to Oogie Boogie Bash to where it already has a following and people anticipate for these tickets to come out. So was it really hard for you to find tickets to this particular event?

Ariel Landrum (02:57)
It already has a follow-up. Yes. And people can participate. Yes.

So that was the crazy thing is they were still selling tickets, I think even until like last week. And the tickets that sold out the fastest were the ones closest to May 4th. And then the first day of the event. And that was it. After that, like I think my roommate was still looking to see if like tickets were available and they were.

Stefanie (03:24)
Yeah, and I think that maybe has to do with like the actual day. Oogie Boogie Bash tends to sell out first closer to Halloween. So maybe this is one of the things where they really wanted to be on May the 4th. But I mean, it is it is a weekday, so that could have contributed to it. But yeah, so like the other nights, I know that you get to step in two hours or so before the event. And when you went.

Ariel Landrum (03:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Stefanie (03:47)
Did you get any sort of giveaway at the gate when you checked in?

Ariel Landrum (03:50)
Mm. So remember Disney Channel Nite, they gave us that glow stick, which was supposed to be the wand. They only gave us the map and a lanyard. And I was.

Stefanie (03:56)
Mm-hmm.

Oh.

Ariel Landrum (04:03)
Yeah, I’m a Magic Key Holder, so I got the Magic Key Holder patch. That was another giveaway. So it does look like all of the Disney night events have a patch as part of the Magic Key giveaway. But that was it. There wasn’t any additional swag. So that was like Miss Number One, because you could have easily just done the glow sticks again. And that’s a saber.

Stefanie (04:07)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, absolutely. That’s like double dipping. And I remember when they gave us that glow stick, I was like, this is super high quality. It’s not like those glow sticks you get at Party City. Like this is a legitimate like wand looking glow stick. And when you cracked it, it was very bright. So I’m interested that they didn’t give you like Yoda ears or. Something, nothing. OK, interesting. All right. So they gave you a map. Was it as detailed as?

Ariel Landrum (04:24)
Mm-hmm.

and then like, wandered away. Like, I just realized that it was very bright. Very bright.

Yeah.

Stefanie (04:45)
the previous map that we got? Okay.

Ariel Landrum (04:46)
Yes. Yes, it was as detailed. So it looks like they’ve sort of learned their lesson from last year that all the Disney or I mean, yeah, the Disney night events will have a map that details the food pictures of the food where to find it, the different photo ops and characters that you can meet, as well as like

Stefanie (04:59)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (05:05)
shows or entertainment that they had around the park. And I was telling my partner, it’s really funny. They don’t you don’t get like the map early. You get it the day you arrive. And yet the map has on their transportation and parking. And it’s like you would have already transported here and parked because they don’t give you this map early. So he thinks that’s part of like standard operating procedure that they have to put that stuff on printed material.

Stefanie (05:09)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Right.

Ariel Landrum (05:30)
But I’m like, you wasted a lot of space, or you could have given us a digital version of this, I’m just saying.

Stefanie (05:35)
Yeah, I’m wondering also if they had it available via the app, but not many people use the app like that. I know that they did do that for Princess Nite where they had like a post that says, oh, the map is released so that you can plan ahead for your event. But they never really like advertise that very like forward, if you will. So, yeah, I think.

Ariel Landrum (05:39)
Mmm, I didn’t.

Hello?

Stefanie (05:54)
You never really see the physical map until you get there. This is true So, I mean you would have already figured all of that stuff out by the time you got there But so then were you able to figure out a game plan of like where to go knowing that you now have the map in your hands We didn’t have I don’t know if you had a plan of like a specific thing you wanted to do because when we did Disney Channel Nite We wanted to for sure do the wand picture

Ariel Landrum (06:00)
Mm-hmm. So then are you able to figure out a game?

Mm-hmm.

Stefanie (06:17)
Did you have a specific thing you wanted to do for Star Wars night?

Ariel Landrum (06:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, there was one thing that I wanted to do that I didn’t think was gonna happen and it didn’t happen. I wanted to take a picture with an Ewok. First, it says Ewoks. There was only one Ewok. So, and the line, the line, I’m sure people stood in line for at least two hours to take a picture of this Ewok. And my partner was laughing. He was like, that is the largest Ewok I’ve ever seen. The Ewok was taller than me and I’m 4’11”.

Stefanie (06:31)
Oh

Ariel Landrum (06:44)
It was a regular sized person. Ewok, I guess.

I didn’t get to take a picture with them. And then there were also very tall Jawas, and you could take a picture with them. And those were the two longest lines, so we didn’t get to do either of those. And so that was out. And none of the food looked interesting to me, but we did check the app. First we had a situation where, so if you’re a Magic Key holder and you have come early and you checked in at the other park,

Stefanie (07:03)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (07:07)
you have to check into the next park for the app to know that you’re there. otherwise it’s, it’s not going to update any Lightning Lane stuff, any Genie+ stuff, any, DAS stuff. So you have to, you have to do that. And we, we didn’t, and the umbrella people told us, no, we can’t do it for you. So we had to walk all the way back to the front, have that rechecked in. Once we did that, I was able to see the food and we were able to make an 8:50 reservation for the Star Wars themed,

Stefanie (07:12)
true.

Mm.

Ariel Landrum (07:34)
like three course meal. And we’ve never been able to do the three course meal, right? So this was exciting. You can check in 30 minutes early. It even says it in the app. So if you’re really trying to save as much time as possible, you get the earliest reservation and go 30 minutes early to do check in, then you’re really saving time. And so we did. We did an earlier check in

Stefanie (07:35)
Oh.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (07:53)
And there were only two items that were Star Wars themed. The rest was the regular New Orleans menu. You didn’t have to do all three course meal. You could just pick like one item. There was no dessert that was Star Wars themed and there was no drink that was Star Wars themed.

Stefanie (08:03)
Mm-hmm.

Wow, really? Oh, that’s very interesting because I remember and again, I’m willing to talk about Disney Channel, like, because it’s so fresh in my mind. When we saw the tasting menu at New Orleans, they had like the Salisbury steak, like TV dinner, they had like, something that kind of looked like a Kool-Aid refresher, things that you would eat after school. And I don’t know where I I’m not sure.

Ariel Landrum (08:09)
Yeah. Uh huh. Uh huh.

Mm-hmm.

TV dinner. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Stefanie (08:33)
where the miss was here because, and okay, I’m gonna interject a little bit of my opinion in here. When they opened Batuu, which is Star Wars Galaxy’s Edge, I realized it’s an immersive experience. So you’re trying to make food, drink, the whole experience as if you were living in a Star Wars-themed land. And to me, I was like, I wonder how they’re gonna blend real life ingredients with fake.

Ariel Landrum (08:33)
Yeah. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Stefanie (08:56)
menu items and fake dishes because how does that translate? Right. Of course, you’re going to do like the best you can with like a marble cake and you’re going to make it look all, you know, galaxy themed or you’re going to say like a Ronto wrap where it’s basically just like a gyro. But instead of like lamb or something, it’s made from a Ronto. There are parallels that you can do, but I wonder where is your limits at that point? Like how far do you go and say?

Ariel Landrum (08:57)
real life ingredients with fake menu. Yes, yes, yes. How does that?

special camera with a marble cape and you’re going to look all of you know Dallas, D.C. and Georgia.

Yes. Yeah.

Stefanie (09:20)
my creativity is spent and I don’t want to be making new things that are, you know, against Lucasfilm. And, you know, even though Disney owns all of these, as long as they can make things up on the fly, I could just imagine, like, the logistics and the planning and, you know, the imagineering that goes into that. So I was wondering if they were going to recycle ideas from Galaxy’s Edge, not only here, or the ones that they have in Florida, and also the recently shuttered Star Wars Hotel.

Ariel Landrum (09:21)
creative views spent and I don’t want to be making new things that are against Lucasfilm. You know, even though Disney owns all of these films, they can make things up on the fly. I can just imagine the logistics.

your exact same thing. Mm-hmm.

Ah, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Stefanie (09:47)
that didn’t end up, you know, living because they decided to shut that whole immersive thing down because it was too much. So I wonder if they were going to take some of those elements to put into Star Wars Nite but apparently not.

Ariel Landrum (09:48)
and didn’t end up, you know, living.

So I wonder if you were going to keep some of those.

Nope, nope. So they had at the New Orleans a battered and fried spicy three cheese Monte Cristo that was called the Mustafar Monte Cristo and that and that came with an exotic salad fruit salad

Stefanie (10:10)
Okay… uh-huh.

Ariel Landrum (10:15)
That was actually the best thing. It was a dragon fruit that was the bowl. Like they use the husk of a dragon fruit and it had dragon fruit and had pineapple and had green apples, strawberry, and I think maybe mango in it. It was really refreshing. It was really good. And the spicy three cheese Monte Cristo, James still thinks their original Monte Cristo was better.

Stefanie (10:18)
Okay. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (10:35)
my partner. So he liked it, but knowing what their original Monte Cristo tastes like, like you can’t, no, can’t help but do like that comparison. And then they had what they called Smuggler’s Fries, and they were they were loaded fries, which is what I got. And it had a cheese on it, a very spicy pepper, which I asked them like to put the peppers on the side.

Stefanie (10:40)
You can’t get that out of your head.

Yeah.

Thanks for watching!

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (10:58)
and the seasoning, James, he tried it, he was pretty sure he tasted Old Bay, but I think they were really banking on that being spicy because once the peppers were gone, there was not a lot of flavoring and actually it came out cold.

Stefanie (11:07)
Ah.

Oh no.

Ariel Landrum (11:13)
Yeah, so I had I had, you know, smothered fries when it was cold fries and cold cheese.

Stefanie (11:18)
Oh, that is not the way to enjoy any sort of like melty fried dish is when it’s cold, because then oh, friend, I’m so sorry. That makes me sad inside.

Ariel Landrum (11:22)
Mm-mm. No.

Yeah.

Now the thing we did learn, if you check the app regularly, you can actually do mobile orders for the themed event food ahead of time. Like you don’t have to wait till nine o’clock.

Stefanie (11:38)
Interesting, okay.

Yeah, okay, that’s good.

Ariel Landrum (11:42)
And remember when we did Princess Nite, like they wouldn’t even, they like the menus hadn’t flipped, they wouldn’t take our order, we couldn’t order ahead of time in the app you can. So the event hadn’t started till nine and we were able to get an order of their, it was the stacked cookies from Harbor.

Stefanie (11:51)
No.

Oh yeah, from Harbor Galley.

Ariel Landrum (12:01)
Yeah, that was one of the themed foods. And we were able to get that at 8:00.

Stefanie (12:05)
Wow, OK. That’s interesting, because I yeah, like you said, what during Princess Nite it was like as if you were at McDonald’s and it was still 10:30. They hadn’t flipped the menus yet to let you order chicken nuggets. Like they were very hard lined on that. But I guess now not really. And maybe that’s like a time saver now, because as we’ve talked about in the past, it’s very hard for you to gauge the different like installations and.

Ariel Landrum (12:14)
They had to flip the menu. Yeah. So much you ordered chicken nuggets. Like, you were very hard.

Yep.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Simply because you wanna be able to have dinner. Mm-hmm. Too late.

Stefanie (12:27)
photo ops you wanna do simply because you wanna be able to have dinner, not eat too late because it goes into the wee hours of the night. But you don’t know how far everything is, or how long you’re gonna have to be weaving through crowds, if you happen to see something and you wanna take pictures. It’s almost like a festival experience where you have to really gauge what your priorities are and what you wanna hit and if those things are worth it. So-

Ariel Landrum (12:34)
Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yes.

Stefanie (12:52)
I think that that’s a win to be able to do that. So that’s definitely a good tip for next time.

Ariel Landrum (12:57)
Mm-hmm. And so we ordered the cookies. And remember, you can always pick up your mobile food order, like, at five minutes before. So we had them before the 8:20 mark, ate them, went to the Cafe New Orleans, did a 30-minute early check-in, sat and ate food, and we asked to sit outside because we wanted to see the water show. And so I had seen other people online and, like, influencers.

Stefanie (13:07)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (13:21)
I saw them posting a video of the water show and it is that band that does the Cantina song, the alien band. Yeah, and they’re on a boat. That is the show. That’s not like everybody’s zooming in on that part because it’s funny. That is it. And so they play it over the speaker and they have them go around and nobody’s doing anything on the island.

Stefanie (13:27)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then they like come around the rumors of America. Yep

Ariel Landrum (13:43)
There’s no lightsaber fighting there. There’s no other boats. And so it was fine that we saw it from the… Because it’s literally just the aliens doing this. Do, do, do.

Stefanie (13:50)
from the seat because…

Yeah. And you know, so I was at Disneyland Last for Dapper Day and we had stayed a little bit longer and we actually ate. We didn’t eat at Cafe Orleans, but we sat like around there. Oh, we, we had clam chowder. That’s what it was. I was like, where was I sitting? We had clam chowder. So we were hanging out there and then Tiana now goes around in that same like boat that they would use for Fantasmic and I’m sorry, it’s not Tiana specifically, but it is like

Ariel Landrum (13:59)
Mm.

Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm.

Oh

Stefanie (14:19)
a New Orleans jazz band and it is somebody, you know, who could sound like Tiana, but isn’t necessarily. I know she has like a name, but she goes around and then there is the water projection that is, I think it has to do with whatever theme is happening. So this one was, I think, still celebrating like Disney 100, but this is like completely separate from the fireworks show. So they kind of alternate. It’s like the New Orleans jazz band that goes around and then they do the projection with the water.

Ariel Landrum (14:20)
Ah, okay, okay.

Mm-hmm.

Stefanie (14:44)
which is what I think you were thinking was gonna happen, right? And it did not.

Ariel Landrum (14:45)
Yeah. Which is what I think you were thinking was gonna happen. Yes, yes. I thought there was gonna be projections. I thought there was going to be, because remember at Princess Nite, we had actual singing performers. So I was expecting a performance. Only missed that. Yes, yeah. Well, I saw it. You all missed it. Yeah, yeah.

Stefanie (14:55)
Yeah, we did. And we like fully missed that. Oh yeah, no, yeah. I missed it because I was getting a churro.

Ariel Landrum (15:04)
Okay, so we leave there and James did another mobile order and it was for crab fritters at the Royal Street Veranda. And let me, I just wanted, oh, so the cookies, those were called Moe’s Isley Spaceport cookies and it literally was the tiny chocolate chip cookies from Harbor with like whipped cream in between.

Stefanie (15:09)
Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Ariel Landrum (15:25)
or yeah, like a cream frosting in between.

Stefanie (15:27)
Was there a big difference in price from the cookies and that? Like, how much do you remember it being? OK.

Ariel Landrum (15:32)
It was like six something and I don’t know if that was after the Magic Key discount or not. Yeah.

Stefanie (15:37)
Got it, got it. That is pretty reasonable, it’s not too bad.

Ariel Landrum (15:40)
No, not too bad. However, again, I want I was buying something themed. I don’t know. I don’t know what the theme stacked luggage, I guess, because it’s supposed to be Mos Eisley spaceport. Yeah, I I’m not sure. I’m not sure. OK, so.

Stefanie (15:43)
The creativity. Uh-huh.

Moss Isley.

Okay.

Ariel Landrum (15:55)
Then we did Cafe New Orleans, we saw the show, we walked over to the Royal Street Verona because my partner had ordered, I had a time for a Splox fritter. That’s the title and they were crab fritters. And you could even see the little claws. So it was kind of cool looking, that was kind of Star Wars-y.

Stefanie (16:05)
Okay.

Okay?

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (16:13)
For some of you who don’t know, my partner is from Maryland. They are known for their blue crabs. Like he’s a crab guy. And again, the fritters were fine. He said it didn’t have a lot of flavor and it wasn’t as full of meat as he would have expected. And I don’t know what the price for that one was because he bought it. But I know that he didn’t think it was enough for what he paid for.

Stefanie (16:20)
Yep

Wow, especially because crab is, it can be on the pricey side, but if you are paying that much, you better have a big old lump of crab in front of you. And you know it’s enough when you can’t finish it.

Ariel Landrum (16:34)
Yeah.

Yes. Yeah, they were like little pops, I guess you’d say, of Fritter. And so, and there was three of them, he finished them up. After that, we went to look at, for photo ops, the Ewok, like I said, couldn’t take a picture with them.

Stefanie (16:47)
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Ariel Landrum (16:57)
So then we went to Galaxy’s Edge to play Smuggler’s Run. And what they did do was they closed Rise of the Resistance early on regular park guests so that as soon as Star Wars night happen, all of the individuals who had that special ticket could ride the ride right away. I think that was very, very accommodating, very smart, especially because you are paying extra.

Stefanie (16:59)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (17:17)
So you go to Galaxy’s Edge and the characters you can take a picture with are Ahsoka, Mandalorian with Grogu, Hera and C-3PO. And they had no handlers for Hera.

Stefanie (17:24)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (17:28)
or the Mandalorian or Ahsoka. They were just walking around. So it was literally like little groups of people just following them walking around. I got no pictures with them. You would have had to like walk and take a selfie. And I don’t know why they didn’t have a line and why there were no handlers. I think because usually what they do is they just walk back and forth and then leave, but they were there the whole night. So it was like…

Stefanie (17:28)
Oh.

Oh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (17:53)
always a cluster of people around those three. The one that I did get a surprise and I did get to take a picture with was C-3PO. And that was because he was behind a fence where they have the different podracers. And he came out, he told me a joke, and then just like walked back and forth there. I don’t think he ever left that area.

Stefanie (17:56)
Yeah.

Yeah.

aww

Yeah, because I don’t think they want people touching his armor.

Ariel Landrum (18:14)
No, no, I don’t think they want people touching anything. And again, because it’s like shuffle walking, I don’t think it’s safe either.

Stefanie (18:19)
Oh yeah, no, I mean, I don’t even think the original C-3PO had much mileage on that costume because it’s hard. They like have no joints at all. Okay.

Ariel Landrum (18:31)
Yeah. So I, I don’t know. I don’t know if that was the best way to go about that. They could have easily set up a line to be able to take pictures and photos. I think it maybe it’s meant to be more intimate.

Stefanie (18:39)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (18:43)
However, because of how many people are in Galaxy’s Edge, because it is Star Wars Nite so most people want to take their photos near the Millennium Falcon, near the podracers, like near Galaxy’s Edge. And so because of that, there was always just people crowding them. I would say the only person who didn’t have people crowding them was Kylo Ren, who we know also walks around.

Stefanie (18:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (19:05)
And he was walking around and took some pictures with people. He engaged with a kid who had a lightsaber and was showing him how to use his lightsaber. And very sweet moment. I think, I don’t know if maybe that cast member is just more seasoned in how to interact in crowds, or people are just so used, obviously, to seeing him that they wanted to.

Stefanie (19:23)
Right.

to seeing him because he’s around a lot.

Ariel Landrum (19:28)
Yeah, so they wanted to crowd the characters they don’t normally see. Um, and, and I don’t think I ever see Hera, so I definitely, I, that’s expected. Um.

Stefanie (19:31)
Yeah.

No. Yeah, I think you kind of touch upon a really good point. And also now that we’ve been to so many of these after dark events where you’re supposed to have a more intimate interaction with like characters you don’t normally see, I think there is a fine line between like making everybody have access to these characters or having.

Ariel Landrum (19:48)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie (19:55)
the immersive experience be the forefront of what you want to do. Because as we know, the whole thing with Star Wars, with BOT2, with Galaxy’s Edge, is that it’s supposed to be more interactive. However, we’ve seen from experience that if you just have a princess there and have lines, that’s gonna take up eons of your time. So I wonder if they are going to either find a way to workshop it or just do these things where like,

Ariel Landrum (20:13)
have live, that’s going to take up eons of your time. Yes. So I wonder if they are going to either find a way to workshop it or.

Stefanie (20:23)
Here at Star Wars Nite, you’re gonna see characters walking around. However, for other events, you’re gonna see them behind like, you know, like a rope or something. I think the one experience that kind of did both of that at the same time is when we saw Stitch and his brothers and sisters in that, where it was a quick line, you did a selfie, instead of like somebody taking a picture of you, the line moved really fast and like they rotated all of his…

Ariel Landrum (20:25)
you’re gonna see turtles walking around. Yeah.

I think the one experience that kind of did both of that at the same time is when we saw Stitch and his brother, Rupi, in that, where it was a quick line, he did a selfie instead of only taking a picture of him. So the light was really fast, and they rotated all of his siblings. So I wonder if they can do that.

Stefanie (20:51)
siblings. So I wonder if they can do that for like Ewoks or for Jawas and say, hey, this is like a selfie experience as opposed to a photo op. Those are just things that I’m wondering.

Ariel Landrum (21:02)
So they did do a walk in photo experience and that was in where usually they have the DJ dance party of near and Tomorrowland by the Galactic. Yeah.

Stefanie (21:08)
Oh right, uh huh, near hyperspace mountain, yeah.

Ariel Landrum (21:11)
And that was Darth Maul and Vader and two stormtroopers that were with Vader. And so they were on the stage and you just walked and took photos with them. The DJ that night was instead in front of the Mickey and Walt statue.

Stefanie (21:15)
Okay.

Oh, right in the middle of the park?

Ariel Landrum (21:27)
Yes, and played really good like 80s and 90s music, you know, walked out there and immediately heard this is how we do it. They, they, the DJ did mix different Star Wars things in but I think they kind of knew the age of the audience if that makes sense. Yeah.

Stefanie (21:31)
Uh-huh.

Because that’s the song that I think of when I think of Star Wars.

Okay. Right, that’s true. But if they truly knew, I think because when I think Star Wars, I think more 70s and 80s, not 80s and 90s. Because when I think Star Wars, I think of like classic rock and I think of, you know, like really progressive rock that used like lasers and stuff like that. More of those things, but…

Ariel Landrum (21:53)
Oh, yes. Yes.

Stefanie (22:06)
I mean, you’re right, the people who are coming to this event are probably younger and are like more millennial age like you and I are.

Ariel Landrum (22:09)
Mm-hmm.

And maybe he did play that music but we were over at Galaxy’s Edge and then and then before we even got to Tomorrowland we had to stop into Toontown to pick up our gift. They made the Magic Key members not go not just go all the way to Toontown but inside Mickey’s house.

Stefanie (22:16)
Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (22:30)
So I had to go inside Mickey’s house and walk around Mickey’s house. And then finally we get there, we get our prize. And then instead of going to the right where you would be in the holding area before you take a picture with him, we went to the emergency exit on the left.

Stefanie (22:30)
That’s like in the back.

so could you have the option, I guess, to take a picture with Mickey?

Ariel Landrum (22:47)
He was not there. No, he was he was on Main Street.

Stefanie (22:49)
Oh, so you just broke and entered into his house to get a giveaway and then you left.

Ariel Landrum (22:54)
Yeah, yeah, we were we were doing a B&E and I don’t and there was nothing in Toontown that was Star Wars related it was literally just us picking up the Magic Key gift I and that was the same thing that happened I think a Disney Channel Nite where there was nothing over by The Hungry Bear Restaurant that’s where we picked up the Magic Key gift.

Stefanie (23:09)
No. Yeah, you were on your way. I think the only thing that was there is that the Country Bear restaurant had themed items that you could get. But that was about it.

Ariel Landrum (23:18)
Yeah, so at least that. So they made us walk all the way to Toontown and there was nothing there for, and they wouldn’t let you play in the playground or stay, like you just picked up and left or use the bathroom.

Stefanie (23:21)
Uh.

I can imagine being a small child dragging along on this Star Wars Nite, going into Toontown and not being able to play in the playground. Like that’s I would be offended as a child.

Ariel Landrum (23:37)
and not being able to play in the playground. Like.

It was not it. And again, age of the audience, probably mostly parents. And this was actually the most diverse group of attendees that I’ve ever seen. I loved that because I saw a lot of, because of how many generations love Star Wars, I saw various ages of fans. There was a lot more scooters that I’m used to seeing at night events because a lot of the fans were older and needed mobility aids.

Stefanie (23:50)
Mmm.

Star Wars, right?

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (24:07)
And so to like make us track all the way to Toontown for no reason, except to pick up a patch that you could have easily done at the entrance of Toontown. Because again, you could have just blocked that whole area off, did the entrance. Because there were things in Fantasy Land. So the really cool thing was, It’s a Small World had a whole projection on it of outer space and you flying through space.

Stefanie (24:21)
Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

Nice.

Ariel Landrum (24:29)
and it matched to music and sound effects. And you can hear like Ray saying stuff. And they had a giant sign that said Star Wars Nite in front of like, I guess like the little stage right next to It’s a Small World when like, and there they had a lightsaber training and like lightsaber presentations, right? So.

Stefanie (24:33)
Yeah.

Oh, uh-huh.

Okay.

Ariel Landrum (24:47)
You could have easily just ended it right there. We didn’t have to go all the way to Toontown, but I think they just wanted to try and spread people out under, I guess the assumption that there’d be so many people, right? So this is a way to like thin out the area, but it just felt like a time killer. Yeah.

Stefanie (24:56)
Mm-hmm. To spread people out, yeah.

Yeah, especially when you are going to these night events. And I don’t think everybody like sleeps through the day to prep for this. Most people go to work, especially if you’re doing it on a day, a weekday. Most people go to work, maybe get off early, go to the park and then experience everything until one o’clock. I think that, you know, when you’re thinking about mobility and also like.

Ariel Landrum (25:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

and everything is a little off, I think that, you know, when you’re thinking about mobility.

Stefanie (25:24)
like having like an equitable experience, that’s a lot to ask for when you only have a window of six-ish hours to do everything. It’s a lot of walking and people would get tired and cranky if they’re really walking to places that they need to be.

Ariel Landrum (25:24)
like having like an equitable experience that’s a lot to ask for when you only have.

Yes. We so yeah so we kind of did a loop around.

we went from Batuu to Toontown. And then from there we went into Tomorrowland and that’s where we got to take a picture with, or a walking video I should say, with Darth Maul and Darth Vader and his troopers. And then there was a…

Stefanie (25:53)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (25:56)
like a mini show where stormtroopers, it was the First Order. So stormtroopers and Captain Phasma were gonna walk around looking for a spy. And they came from what is now, I guess, that big round, it’s now like an eating area lounge for like members only. Okay.

Stefanie (26:04)
Mm-hmm.

Oh, the Carousel of Progress is what I know it as.

Ariel Landrum (26:14)
The Carousel of Progress, that’s where they came from. Where we ended up choosing to see the show was awful because they came down, they went around towards the pizza, Pizza Planet, and then in front of the gift shop at Star Tours, and we were standing at the entrance of the carousel. So they were behind us.

Stefanie (26:24)
Uh-huh. Pizza Planet. Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (26:34)
They were engaging with the audience and we were just waiting forever them to come by. And then when they walked by, like my partner was pointing at like the whole time he was watching one stormtrooper that was just like always like a beat off, like did not get the “and” count. And didn’t and it didn’t look like it was meant to be silly, right? Like, oh, there’s that like that one. Like I think I.

Stefanie (26:45)
Oh no. Oh no!

Ariel Landrum (26:53)
I think if you are really good at improv and you notice you’re messing up the counts, you could have just like improv that you were like the bad stormtrooper that just didn’t know like you could have handled that up, but that didn’t happen. Yeah.

Stefanie (26:59)
Right, you could have leaned on it. You could have leaned on it because we all know that stormtroopers are like not all the way trained They always miss so it could have been a really fun like silly way to do it, but I guess not That’s so interesting. So so you So you went through Going down Main Street. They you know, probably did they have the projections on either side of the buildings on Main Street?

Ariel Landrum (27:06)
No, no, yeah.

So because we were already towards New Orleans at the time it started, we didn’t get to see them turn on the projections or hear like any song intro, but the projections were on the castle and Main Street. We didn’t see any projections on Space Mountain like Disney Channel Nite, but it was split in half light side and dark side.

Stefanie (27:24)
Mm-hmm.

I see. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (27:39)
And then there were these QR codes that you needed to scan to vote. And then at a certain time, which was like at 11:50 or midnight, they were gonna see who won, the light side or the dark side. And so by the DJ booth at like midnight,

Stefanie (27:45)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (27:51)
like smoke shoots up and it’s a color blue in the light side one. But that was like the digital, that was all the QR code was, was you did this vote and they had the smoke and they, I thought they were gonna change all the projections to like the winning color. Did they didn’t do that? And you didn’t. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And you did not get anything from scanning the QR code, not even like a digital wallpaper. So.

Stefanie (27:56)
Okay.

Yeah, it’s kind of like Harry Potter, like who wins the house cup?

Ariel Landrum (28:15)
That was more of like a battery killer because you could keep voting to try and like win. I don’t think that was worth it. And then they did a cavalcade with everyone in costume. So I would say the other really cool thing was this was the most costume event I’ve seen of a variety of characters.

Stefanie (28:17)
Yeah.

Mm hmm. So everybody. Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (28:31)
everybody. I think we were probably the only people who like wore just Star Wars themed outfits and everyone else was like just decked out. So many people. And so they did the cavalcade, took a picture in front of the castle. We missed getting into the photo but I got the photo. And then the one of the coolest…

Stefanie (28:36)
Alright.

That’s awesome.

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (28:51)
characters was it was Queen Amidala. She was sitting in the princess tent in her throne. So you had to like do a walk up, right? The cast members were not taking our cameras. So it was like us trying to take the picture and they wanted it to keep moving. But there were a lot of people who stopped and were like able to get photos. So it was weird how they rushed some people, but not others. But.

Stefanie (28:53)
Oooh.

That’s cute.

Oh.

Ariel Landrum (29:14)
Not only did she look like Queen Amidala, she sounded like her. Like this, she was the most authentic, absolutely, absolutely like Natalie Portman. And in the way that she talked in the movie, like it was awesome. And then the only other food item we got was cookies and cream churros at Tomorrowland that were spicy.

Stefanie (29:18)
She sounded like Natalie Portman.

Wow.

Oh.

Ariel Landrum (29:34)
Yeah, Cookies and Cream Stuff Churro at the Tomorrowland Churro Cart.

again was fine. And what a horrible name. Like they could have. It’s a black churro. They the least they could have done was label it like black hole. I don’t know. They had over.

Stefanie (29:45)
Oh!

Anything really.

Ariel Landrum (29:51)
At Fantasyland, they had a green lightsaber churro, which was sour apple and butterscotch, but my partner was like, ah, this doesn’t sound like a flavor I want. And then there was a chocolate coconut caramel churro, and that one was titled Endo Forest, so at least they tried to give it a name. But yeah, this one, I think maybe it was like chai spices. I don’t know. I don’t know what it was, but it was a weird flavored churro. And then…

Stefanie (29:58)
No, not at all.

Ariel Landrum (30:14)
We saw the DJ, we took a picture with Princess, or Queen Amidala, we were leaving down Main Street and picked up our final item, which was at the Red Wagon. And it was a corn dog that was smothered, I guess you would say. And it was smothered in street corn.

Stefanie (30:28)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, that’s not too bad, right? Was that one good?

Ariel Landrum (30:32)
Yeah, and it’s

It was really bready.

Stefanie (30:36)
Oh, not enough meat.

Ariel Landrum (30:39)
There was not enough meat on it. And I don’t know if it was because it was loaded. It had chili, tomato, cheese sauce, and like spicy cheese chips on it. And I don’t know if maybe because it had so much stuff, they added extra breading, but that kind of like took, I don’t know, some flavor. Like it was you eating a lot of like the breading.

I don’t even think it had a name. Yeah.

Stefanie (31:00)
I saw it was just called the loaded corn dog. That’s it.

Ariel Landrum (31:04)
Yeah, yeah, that was it. Yeah, so I don’t know, it was like, it was a very odd experience to know that they can pull so much from this franchise, and to have cookies and cream churro like not to not even try and create a name and you did mention with the food, like the foods made up like we can’t really bring ronto here but there are blue milk. However,

Stefanie (31:13)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (31:25)
You can still have themed items. We’ve talked about this on all our panels. You can like a green churro as a lightsaber. At least there was effort there, you know?

Stefanie (31:28)
Mm-hmm.

Totally, yeah. And like, I know that because Star Wars themes, it’s different planets against different settings. So like, we all know that there’s a desert, there is a tropical island, there is a forest. Like, we could pull from those actual elements of nature to maybe pair up food with whatever you would see there. Like,

Ariel Landrum (31:41)
Mm-hmm.

desert. There is a tropical island. There is a forest. Like, we just fall from those natural, like, elements of nature. Yes. You know, pair up food with whatever you would see there. Like, you can actually see two forests. Mm-hmm.

Stefanie (31:58)
Nuts and Seeds for the Forest or you know like um like an Oasis for the Desert or something like that like I know they can be very creative with these because blue milk is a hit. Everything that I’ve had inside the Cantina is a hit. Even like the little like shrimp chips that I have over at um like Oga’s Cantina those are great and those are Asian shrimp chips like I already know what those are but.

Ariel Landrum (32:21)
Mm-hmm. Yes, hit. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Stefanie (32:23)
they’ve rebranded some of these existing items so well that, I mean, this, sorry to say, might feel a little lazy or a little bit afterthought, which is disappointing

Ariel Landrum (32:34)
So other things that evening is if you want on hyperspace mountain, just like Haunted Mansion has seasonal versions, Space Mountain has a season of the force version where you can ride on it and you are experiencing John Williams Star Wars score, you see laser effects and animation, and you are in a dogfight between an X-wing and a TIE fighter. So that’s cool.

Stefanie (32:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That’s cool.

Ariel Landrum (32:56)
And then they added scenes from the Disney, different Disney+ series. So the Ahsoka series, the Mandalorian, you can…

ride in different planets that you would see in the new Ahsoka series. So Star Tours, they have so many storylines now, there’s about 250 variations. So when you ride the ride, you know, there’s a good chance that you won’t get the same thing. And that night for Star Wars night, I do believe they added more repeats of the newer

Stefanie (33:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

Ariel Landrum (33:24)
Disney+ series versions where you can get Grogu or you can hear Cassian, you know, and you’re helping them with different urgent missions or you’re intercepting their transmission. if you went for the rides, you probably would have thought Star Wars Nite was it.

Stefanie (33:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (33:38)
If you, and they didn’t have fireworks this year, they, I don’t know why, but there was announced that they weren’t gonna do that. I think because of like some late night orders during the week. I guess I expected more and maybe, and we talk about managing expectations, maybe that was the problem was, I was,

Stefanie (33:48)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (33:56)
I was thinking of such a large IP that you can pull from. And I wasn’t also considering that there’s probably just a lot of practical things that Disney has to consider. And so I don’t know if I’ll do it again. I will be honest about that. I can certainly get into a lot better, I think, more fun Star Wars events during Season of the Force, during May 4th.

Stefanie (34:00)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah, and there’s plenty of places and things to do around at least Los Angeles. If you want to celebrate Season of the Force, if you don’t have the means and ways to go to Star Wars Nite I know that that’s pretty much a commitment when it comes to celebrating Star Wars. Of course, you can always go during regular season. Going to Batuu is immersive enough in itself. And also…

Ariel Landrum (34:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Stefanie (34:39)
here at Disneyland, we not only have Batuu, but our Tomorrowland is still heavily Star Wars themed. It hasn’t really left because there wasn’t a Batuu back then. So I know along with Star Wars Night, you can also go to the Academy Museum, which is in Mid City here in LA. They are doing a May the 4th celebration and workshop. So I know the Academy Museum, they honor a lot of different types of classic films.

Ariel Landrum (34:44)
Mm-hmm.

Stefanie (35:02)
pop culture icons when it comes to a movie and anything that you basically see on the big screen. And Star Wars is a huge IP, like Ariel said, and they are honoring that on the fourth. Many sporting events around LA do a Star Wars night, very like what they do at Disneyland. Of course, the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim are right next door to Disneyland, and they always have a Star Wars weekend. This weekend, it’s gonna be on April 26th and 27th.

Ariel Landrum (35:09)
and it’s huge, I feel like Ariel said, and they are honoring that. And of course, we’re going to be starting events around LA to use the Star Wars night here in the city.

Los Angeles Angels of the Time. Yes. They’re right next door to Disneyland, and they always have a Star Wars weekend. So this weekend it’s going to be at people 26th and 27th, very close. And they also do a light show, and they have giveaways, rally monkeys, and a firework show as well. So we’re around, and I’m probably going to see a firework show either at Disneyland or at Angels Stadium.

Stefanie (35:29)
very close and they also do a light show and they have giveaways like a rally monkey and a firework show as well. So everywhere around Anaheim you’re probably going to see a firework show either at Disneyland or at Anaheim at Angel Stadium. The Dodgers always do a Star Wars night. It’s always packed. They always have really good giveaways. This year it’s on May 6th against the Miami Marlins with the ticket package.

Ariel Landrum (35:48)
Yes.

Stefanie (35:54)
For Star Wars night, you get a Millennium Falcon bobblehead. I know Ariel’s gonna go to that. She was really excited when we were at the last Dodger game. So instead of a bobblehead of a person and their head bobbling around, it is Dodger Stadium with the Millennium Falcon hovering around the field. So that’s super cute. I know that Ariel, you go to a local bar, right? That holds trivia sometimes. Can you share a little bit about that?

Ariel Landrum (36:16)
I know that Ariel’s equal to a local bar, right? That tweet that looks trivia sometimes. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yes, Skemin Villany is a local bar that is set up to essentially look like it is in the Star Wars universe. It is a fandom bar, so it changes out. Like when they had Game of Thrones, there was a lot of

Game of Thrones themed items there and right now because X-Men is out every Wednesday. They play the new episode and voice actor visits during those trivia

Stefanie (36:42)
a lot of them live in the area and are local, so they always are really down to meet all of the fans and give them that more interactive experience with them.

Ariel Landrum (36:50)
Yes, yes, but it is still always set up to look like a Star Wars bar. There are themed drinks there and trivia night there is every Wednesday, as well as during May the 4th they have different type of activities. So, and our friend, Joe Di, he always goes every Wednesday for trivia. he doesn’t have Disney+. So that’s actually interesting. That’s how he sees the new X-Men show.

Stefanie (37:03)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. There is also a big museum that is being built right next to Expo Park and USC, which is the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art. It’s not just going to be a Star Wars museum, but it’s going to tackle all of the Lucasfilm franchise films. So that’s set to open in 2025. It looks really cool already. I go to a lot of field trips around there.

Ariel Landrum (37:33)
ready. I got a lot of blitz around there.

Stefanie (37:34)
and the whole top of the building is supposed to be a living roof. So it has greenery and stuff. It’s really cool. It’s something that I would actually probably see on one of the Star Wars worlds. So I’m sure when that opens, hopefully we can go visit and let you guys know what it’s all about. But other than that, we have Star Wars at the Hollywood Bowl.

Ariel Landrum (37:41)
Yeah.

Stefanie (37:53)
on August 7th, 9th, and 10th. And I know they do the John Williams score. Everybody brings their lightsabers. I know, Ariel, you’ve been a couple times, right?

Ariel Landrum (37:53)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. Sometimes it is just John Williams and we’re listening to all the scores of the different movies that he has created music for and it always includes Star Wars. They also do the…

where they play the movie, a film. Usually it’s Empire Strikes Back, you get to bring your lightsaber, you can you can come dressed up, and those are the events that you’re allowed to also bring food and your own drinks,

Stefanie (38:26)
And of course, last but not least, there is Star Wars Celebration that happens every couple years or so. That is the big mama of all of the Star Wars conventions this year, or actually not this year, next year in 2025. It’s going to happen in Japan. So it would be interesting if any of our followers or listeners out there have either been to a Star Wars Celebration or are planning to go because I have one acquaintance of mine when it was somewhere here in…

Ariel Landrum (38:34)
big mama of all of the Star Wars. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Or actually, not this year, next year.

Mm-hmm.

Stefanie (38:50)
the United States, I forget where, but it’s like hardcore Star Wars fans. So whether or not you have your opinion of Star Wars fandom, neither here or there, they are all gonna be there. So that is probably the most immersive you’re gonna get when it comes to experiencing Star Wars with other people and just coming into community with other people who have been touched by the series, whether it’s…

Ariel Landrum (38:52)
But it’s like hard for someone to spend time with.

They are all going to be there. That is probably the most immersive you’re going to get when it comes to experiences. I was with other people. And just coming into community with other people.

Stefanie (39:13)
you know, in their personal or professional lives.

Ariel Landrum (39:15)
Yes, and this year, May the 4th, Star Wars Day lands also on Free Comic Book Day. Free Comic Book Day is always the first Saturday of May. So there are a lot of comic book shops that are doing essentially a dual event.

Stefanie (39:27)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (39:28)
And so if you are trying to try and find things in your area to celebrate Star Wars, you can go on the free comic book day website that there’s probably going to be a listing of things in your area. The other thing is you can always watch your favorite trilogy, right, they always came out in different trilogies, whichever one you were introduced to or your family was introduced to you can watch them in order of release or a numbered order and have a party at your house with different food items.

Stefanie (39:35)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (39:53)
can maybe binge watch some of the new shows on Disney+ or even the animated series. There are a variety of ways to celebrate May the 4th and engage in the community building because that is the thing about the franchise is

It is so large, it is so vast, and spans multiple generations that you can create really good community and fandom connection. And some of the best ways to start finding that is by doing it on May the 4th and seeing what is in your area.

Stefanie (40:22)
Yeah. And, you know, like Ariel said, it touches upon so many different generations and so many people were introduced to Star Wars in such unique and different ways. When we all used to consume media back then when Star Wars was first introduced, it was only through the movies. But now as we’ve noticed that they’ve had such a hit with making toys and collectibles that were specific to the movies, like…

Ariel Landrum (40:43)
that was specific to the movies. It really is one of the cornerstones.

Stefanie (40:44)
It really is one of the cornerstones of what pop culture and the influence of pop culture can mean to families, to different people, to people of all sorts of backgrounds and education levels and just bringing them together with the classic narrative of good versus evil, but also challenge what good is and challenge what evil is. Because as we’ve seen the narratives develop and evolve,

Ariel Landrum (40:52)
to families, to different people, to people with all sorts of backgrounds.

and bringing together with the classic narrative of good versus evil, but also challenge what good is and challenge what evil is. As we see the narratives develop…

Stefanie (41:12)
we are now looking into what exactly is a bad guy, what exactly is a good guy, who are the Key players to that? And that goes into so many different topics that both me and Ariel use in our practices. It’s just a wide array of information and just world building that, you know, it keeps on giving every time.

Ariel Landrum (41:16)
to what exactly is a bad guy. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

It’s just a wide array of information and just world building. You know, it keeps on giving every time. I know a lot of people talk about how Star Wars is tired and they’re just doing too much with it. I think it’s a great thing because not everybody is going to love everything. But you’re going to find certain people who are attached to certain stories.

Stefanie (41:35)
I know a lot of people talk about how Star Wars is tired and they’re just doing too much with it. I think it’s a great thing because not everybody is going to love everything, but you’re gonna find certain people who attach to certain stories. And I think that’s the beauty of having series like the Bad Batch, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan. I mean, there are so many people love those specific things for specific reasons, and it doesn’t have to be for everybody, everybody.

Ariel Landrum (41:53)
and Obi-Wan. I mean, there are so many people love those specific things for students.

No, no, I’m curious for you, Stef, what are some ways that you do see Star Wars in your classroom and after school activities?

Stefanie (42:07)
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think Star Wars is just one of those things you could just print out a coloring page of Grogu now and you automatically have a kindergartner’s attention. They go, oh, that’s Baby Yoda. They’re probably never going to call Grogu by Grogu’s name. It’s just going to be Baby Yoda forever, because as I’ve now become a mom, all of my son’s stuff was Baby Yoda because they just that was the only that was the last franchise that kind of came out.

Ariel Landrum (42:15)
you automatically have a kindergarteners attention. They go, oh, that’s Baby Yoda. They’re probably never going to call Robo by Cobra. It’s going to be Baby Yoda forever.

Yeah.

Stefanie (42:32)
during the pandemic and all of the licensing was just Baby Yoda and the Mandalorian. So you already have an in, if you know a tiny, tiny bit about the Mandalorian, which is wildly popular. But if you get into the older students, you can start talking about values and ethics with, what are the motivations of Yoda and his teachings and what are Obi-Wan Kenobi’s ethics and teaching when he’s-

Ariel Landrum (42:34)
and all the licensing was just the Yoda and the Mandalorian. We already have an in if you want a tiny, tiny bit about the Mandalorian, which is wildly popular. But if you get into it with an older student, you can still get a little bit of a feel for it.

What are the motivations of Yoda and his chain of work?

Stefanie (43:00)
you know, telling Luke where to go, what to do, how to save the galaxy. There’s so many lessons that go into not only that, but using mythology as well as another layer to figuring out what your ethics and philosophies are, because there’s always gonna be history whenever you’re talking about saving the world. So how do we use that history to make better decisions so that you don’t make the mistakes of the past and all of these wars and stuff that happen? So…

Ariel Landrum (43:09)
Mm-hmm.

always going to be history whenever you’re talking about saving.

to make better decisions. So you don’t make them the same. Yeah. Yes. And all of these wars and stuff like that happen. So you can tie a lot of that into the evil history plus ecology. Mm-hmm. The hero’s journey is really good

Stefanie (43:27)
You can tie a lot of that into medieval history, classic mythology. The hero’s journey is really good when it

Ariel Landrum (43:34)
Yes, because that was George Lucas’s intention, right? He specifically followed all of Joseph Campbell’s The Hero’s Journey information to the T. And so that is the easiest way to teach it when something was made specifically for that theory of storytelling.

Stefanie (43:37)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, not only that, but history and political science, if you go into more of the high school and the college age students, you could talk about how the Galactic Senate, the empire is comprised, who are the people that make those seats? What kind of people make those seats? How does it look and how does it differ from the empire to Alderaan to different planets that the Mandalorian encounters?

They are different government types and there’s a lot of corruption in them. So you can talk about those dynamics and how those parallel some of the governments that we see today

Ariel Landrum (44:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Stefanie (44:21)
different sorts of civilizations, like a village, as compared to a metropolis, what roles they play in the economic systems that happen on these worlds.

Ariel Landrum (44:31)
Star Wars is to just know your facts. And if you don’t know everything about Star Wars, that’s okay. You can learn alongside your students. And really, we all know the Key players. We all know about Rey, we all know about Luke, Leia, on Baby Yoda, Grogu, the Mandalorian, but how…

Stefanie (44:31)
is to just know your facts. And if you don’t know everything about Star Wars, that’s okay. You can learn alongside your students and be like, hey, we all know the Key players. We all know about Rey. We all know about Luke, Leia, Han, Baby Yoda, Grogu, the Mandalorian. But how about we learn more about them together? Watch a short clip and have them analyze it. I think you don’t have to be an expert when it comes to these things. But I think your curiosity in itself can really speak volumes when it comes to fandoms.

Ariel Landrum (44:50)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Stefanie (45:00)
not just Star Wars, but any sort of fandom that you’re kind of using as a teaching material. Yeah. And for you, Ariel, I know you talk to a lot of your clients who are diehard Star Wars fans. Are there any resources that you found helpful or useful in your practice? So, I’m gonna start with you, Ariel.

Ariel Landrum (45:01)
Not just Star Wars, but any sort of fandom that you’re kind of using. Yes. And for you, Ariel, I know you talk to a lot of your clients who are in Star Wars or other. Yes. Are there any-

I have three books on my bookshelf that was shared in the Geek Therapy community and when I saw them, I immediately bought them. The first one is Be More Leia, Find Your Rebel Voice and Fight the System. Yes. Be More Yoda, Mindful Thinking from a Galaxy Far Away.

Stefanie (45:26)
I love that. It’s like a purple, I love the purple. That’s so cool.

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (45:34)
And then, be more Vader, assertive thinking from the dark side.

Stefanie (45:37)
And from what it looks like, those are very like small books that you can just kind of skim through, right? It’s not like a novel. It’s not like the Star Wars compendium.

Ariel Landrum (45:41)
Yes!

Mm-mm. Our words can tend you. Mm-mm. And it is meant to be digestible.

Some other resources. Dr. Travis Langley, he is a professor and he is the author of a book, Star Wars, psychology, dark side of the mind. So if you are into pop culture and psychology, that would be a great resource.

Stefanie (45:53)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (46:03)
If you are somebody who needs a template before integrating this media into your sessions. However, you can also do character analysis. And we just finished tags, Therapeutic Applied Geek and Gaming Summit. This was this past weekend. And one of the presenters

Stefanie (46:08)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (46:17)
Josh Lockhart, a clinical counselor from Canada.

presented what if Darth Vader practiced positive psychology? And so positive psychology has these very specific pillars on helping increase positive or affirming emotions, engagement, relationships, meaning, and achievement in your life. And what if those things were presented to you, Darth Vader? And one of the things that he highlighted in the beginning that I completely forgot that blew me away, which is part of that empathy building,

to you know little Anakin he was enslaved he already started off as a disenfranchised person and when you think of the adverse childhood experiences or ace score he had a lot of aces and the higher that score is the more likely that you are to have chronic illness the more likely that you are to have mental

Stefanie (46:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (47:03)
And so.

you know, when I think of Vader, I forget about Anakin and I forget about young Anakin. And one of the things that we know is that his largest motivator from psychological trauma was that he had a fear of loss. And that is the most human feeling. Like even though grief and loss is universal, everyone will experience losing someone. That fear is still immense of potentially losing someone.

Stefanie (47:08)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (47:28)
So all of his motivations to become Darth Vader was to be able to change the course and outcome of essentially death for someone that he loves and seeing a world that meets the needs for him when they weren’t given. And think of being someone who’s enslaved, you’ve never experienced empowerment, you’ve experienced power and control. And then he became

Stefanie (47:51)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (47:53)
A Jedi was being trained in the Jedi indoctrinate you and they had definitely specific ideas about him because he was the chosen one. So again, another presentation, even though they’re the good guys of power and control and not empowerment and upliftment.

Stefanie (48:01)
Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (48:08)
And so it only makes sense that when he wants to prevent loss, the only way he can think of doing it is not by fostering deep relationships that you can take with you when someone passes. Instead, it’s to use power and control.

Stefanie (48:22)
Yeah, totally. And I think all of that is so important when we’re just talking about like the human condition, right? There’s so many different facets and it’s so interesting to see that we have now looked at the human condition while thinking about these otherworldly characters that don’t exist in this world, but they go through the same exact emotions, hardships, economic, global, and you know, on a deeper and more intimate level than we do.

Ariel Landrum (48:28)
Yes.

Okay. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Stefanie (48:48)
It’s, and I think that is the beauty of Star Wars and why it has such a wide reach all around the world is that everybody can connect to these stories and these narratives because the storytelling is so simple, but expansive and has a lot of depth.

Ariel Landrum (48:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I like how it’s so simple, but expansive.

Yes, yes, I think that there’s a lot you can pull from the franchise as a clinician, you can certainly pull regarding mindfulness and meditation. Because this, you know, the, in Star Wars, they’re always talking about the balance and the balance of the floor, the force. I think when you start to see Ray’s journey and her being essentially tempted by the dark side and that scene where she like touches like that the glass or the wall and there’s like all of these versions of her.

Stefanie (49:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (49:28)
that really could be useful in doing shadow work, if that is part of your practice, if you’re a union. And even just talking about the concept of

Stefanie (49:34)
Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (49:38)
mentorship. Sometimes some of my clients struggle to find a role model. They have memories that are traumatic. They have maybe caregivers that were not caring. And so finding mentors outside of your family or within your community, you know, Star Wars, like gives you an example of what those different relationships look like, when they can be unhealthy, when they can be an actual support

Stefanie (49:39)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Ariel Landrum (50:01)
how you have communication with a mentor and what they’re meant to show you. All of those things are just essentially very potent themes for a therapeutic setting.

Stefanie (50:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I love that. And again, there I feel like we could even do a Star Wars part two when we talk about this, just because there’s so much to dive into. And I think we are really just getting into the so-called meat and potatoes of Star Wars, because I think when it comes to both of our practices and, you know, our careers, Star Wars has a very deep reach into the levels of people that we can connect with.

Ariel Landrum (50:16)
Oh, yeah.

Stefanie (50:34)
and kind of explore a lot of these topics with. So hopefully when we, maybe every May, we do a Star Wars episode, that’d be really cool and look at different ways to celebrate Star Wars. And even though me and Ariel do not claim to be the best, biggest Star Wars fan ever, we are lovers of the franchise and the movies. They bring us a lot of joy. We have connected as friends over Star Wars and…

Ariel Landrum (50:43)
Yeah.

Mm-mm. Yeah.

Stefanie (50:57)
We love dressing up and doing, you know, fun things like Ariel used to make me little Princess Leia cookies back when we worked at retail and it was always really fun to connect with other people, our co-workers over Star Wars too and just kind of nerd out. Again, we love sharing community with other geeks and I think Star Wars is such a good way to segue into all of that.

Ariel Landrum (51:04)
back when we were done.

So if you are doing anything very interesting or unique for May the 4th, if you just want to let us know how Star Wars has touched you, how you incorporated in your life, be sure to DM us @HappiestPodGT on Instagram. And may the force be with you.

Media/Characters Mentioned
  • Star Wars franchise
  • Star Wars: Galaxy’s Edge
  • The Mandalorian
  • Grogu (Baby Yoda)
  • Darth Vader
  • Ahsoka Tano
  • C-3PO
  • Kylo Ren
  • Hera Syndulla
  • Queen Amidala
Topics/Themes Mentioned
  • Nostalgia
  • Character interactions
  • Community building
  • Cultural significance
  • Diversity and inclusion
  • Education
  • Therapeutic applications
  • Personal growth
  • Event experiences
  • Franchise legacy
  • Practical applications in therapy
  • Storytelling as a tool
  • Healing trauma through narratives

Website: happy.geektherapy.com
 | Instagram: @HappiestPodGT | Twitter: @HappiestPodGT | Facebook: @HappiestPodGT |
 | Stef on Twitter: @stefa_kneee | Ariel on Instagram: @airyell3000 |

Geek Therapy is a 501(c)(3) non-profit with the mission of advocating for the effective and meaningful use of popular media in therapeutic, educational, and community practice.
| GT Facebook: @GeekTherapy | GT Twitter: @GeekTherapy |
| GT Forum: forum.geektherapy.com  | GT Discord: geektherapy.com/discord |

The Battle for Pumpkin King

April 26, 2024 · Discuss on the GT Forum

https://media.blubrry.com/happypod/media.transistor.fm/25020387/93def1ff.mp3

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39: In honor of Half-Way to Halloween, Ariel, Stefanie, and their guest, Dan Connor, dive into the enchanting world of the comic series The Nightmare Before Christmas: The Battle for Pumpkin King. They explore the beginnings of iconic characters Jack Skellington and Oogie Boogie, shedding light on their transition from friends to rivals. Join them as they discuss how the graphic novel captivates die-hard fans and new readers, perfectly capturing the spirit of the beloved franchise.

Summary

Summary of HPOE39

  • 00:00 Introduction: Introduction to the episode, greeting, and a brief overview of what will be discussed, including Dan Conner’s work and the focus on “The Nightmare Before Christmas: The Battle for Pumpkin King.”
  • 03:24 Dan Conner’s Background and Achievements: Introduction of Dan Conner, discussing his career, notable works, and his role in creating “The Nightmare Before Christmas: The Battle for Pumpkin King.”
  • 07:15 Origins of ‘The Nightmare Before Christmas’: Discussion on the inception and cultural impact of “The Nightmare Before Christmas,” setting the stage for the deeper exploration of the graphic novel.
  • 12:20 Deep Dive into ‘The Battle for Pumpkin King’: Detailed exploration of the graphic novel, character development of Jack and Oogie, and the themes of rivalry and friendship.
  • 19:34 Creative Process and Challenges: Insight into the creative process of adapting the story into a graphic novel, challenges faced, and the collaboration between artists and writers.
  • 27:50 Storytelling Techniques: Comics vs. Manga: Comparison of storytelling techniques in American comics and manga, as seen in the graphic novel.
  • 34:18 Educational and Therapeutic Applications: Discussion on how the themes and characters of the graphic novel can be used in educational and therapeutic settings.
  • 40:45 Engaging Fans and New Readers: Strategies for engaging long-time fans of “The Nightmare Before Christmas” and attracting new readers to the graphic novel.
  • 47:30 Conclusion and Where to Find the Book: Closing thoughts, where listeners can find “The Battle for Pumpkin King,” and upcoming appearances by Dan Conner.
Transcription

Ariel Landrum (00:00)
Hello everyone, welcome to the Happiest Pod on Earth. I’m Ariel, a licensed therapist who uses clients’ passions and fandoms to help them grow and heal from trauma and mental unwellness.

Stefanie (00:09)
And I’m Stef I’m an educator who uses passions and fandoms to help my students grow and learn about themselves and the world around them.

Dan Conner (00:15)
And I’m Dan, I’m a cartoonist. I wrote the Nightmare Before Christmas, The Battle for Pumpkin King, and I work on a lot of comics.

Ariel Landrum (00:24)
Beautiful, beautiful. And here at Happiest Pod we dissect mediums with a critical lens. Why? Because we are more than fans and we expect more from the mediums we consume.

Stefanie (00:33)
That’s right. And everybody, as we have a special guest here on our podcast, what are we discussing today?

Ariel Landrum (00:39)
Exactly that Nightmare Before Christmas, which this is the opportune time simply because we are halfway to Halloween. So Dan, can you tell us a bit about your comic?

Stefanie (00:46)
That’s right.

Dan Conner (00:50)
Yes, it’s a prequel to the Nightmare Before Christmas movie. And the premise is that it starts off when Jack and Oogie Boogie are friends. And there it’s not really much of a spoiler. There was a former Pumpkin King named Edgar who is coming to the end of his tenure. And so Jack and Oogie have to compete against each other to see who will be the new Pumpkin King. Of course, if you’ve seen the movie, it’s not a spoiler that you might not.

You might know who that is, but this gives the background information to how that happens and how the rivalry between Jack and Oogie begins.

Ariel Landrum (01:24)
And did you write and do the artwork for this comic or graphic novel?

Dan Conner (01:29)
No, I just wrote it. It was originally five comics that were collected in one graphic novel.

Ariel Landrum (01:37)
Hey, beautiful, beautiful.

Stefanie (01:38)
Yeah, that’s awesome. I mean, I remember Ariel emailed it to me and then I saw the PDF. I was at work. And then I realized that I did not go back to my task for like 30 minutes because I just kept reading it. And I’m like, this is so fantastic. I love, I love me a good prequel story. And I love seeing characters when they’re younger because I think it’s so fascinating. I’m surrounded by kids all day and.

Dan Conner (01:53)
I’m sorry.

Yeah.

Stefanie (02:05)
when you have a character as beloved as Jack and as Oogie Boogie, seeing them in their child form, I think is so playful and fun and it just gives another dimension to the character. So I was immediately hooked.

Dan Conner (02:17)
Very cool, yeah, that’s really fun about it. I love the different character designs that you see, Sally with the pigtails, Jack with kind of like the schoolboy uniform, so yeah, that’s really fun.

Ariel Landrum (02:30)
and even Lock, Shock, and Barrel as babies. That was adorable.

Dan Conner (02:34)
Yeah, yeah, I’m glad you think so.

Stefanie (02:35)
So cute. Yeah, everybody loves a baby version of a character. I think that kind of ties to like when we saw Grogu and seeing him as a baby first, that’s why everybody went baby Yoda at first, just because we were like, oh, obviously that’s just a child version of Yoda. And then we started doing like that calculation meme. We were like, wait, is that really him? But yeah, I think seeing kids or seeing characters in like…

Dan Conner (02:56)
Yeah.

Stefanie (03:00)
all stages of their life is so interesting, especially with a character development so rich as what we were given in the Nightmare Before Christmas. It was so interesting to me to see how playful he was even when he was younger and even how playful Oogie Boogie was, even though it was a different type of playfulness that we saw when he was singing and when he was doing his vile things. This was a different type of playfulness and I think…

that that was really interesting to see how they interacted with each other because all we knew was just the struggle between the two during the movie. So how did it feel for you to create a story with a new story with such beloved characters? Was it difficult? Was it hard? I mean, was it something that you’ve already thought about?

Dan Conner (03:49)
That’s a good question. Yeah, it felt really good. I mean, Nightmare Before Christmas is my favorite Disney movie for sure. And getting to be involved with the series is amazing. Getting to write one of the comic series graphic novels was just unbelievable. So when I was able to work on it, the outline was already done. And so…

That was of course by DJ Milky and Sean McLaughlin and they weren’t able to write out the whole thing and script it out. And there were some changes made to that one as well. So it was brought to me and then my task was to write the book. That went really well. I was able to try a few different things, try a lot of different things that ultimately just about everything worked out.

Ariel Landrum (04:44)
I’m curious, were you ever attempted to create new characters in the Nightmare Before Christmas sort of like world or universe? Was that even on the table for discussion?

Dan Conner (04:54)
So the former Pumpkin King Edgar, he was a character that we created. So there was already, we already knew that he was going to be a character and I was able to flesh him out. I was able to name him and kind of work on, you know, who he was, his character motivations, things like that. So that is essentially the only new character in the Battle for Pumpkin.

King. I’m kind of like racking my brain right now and I don’t think yeah, there’s no other new characters in that one.

Ariel Landrum (05:24)
Yeah.

Well, I think it’s really important that you mention that because he is a very vital character. It’s how essentially the story gets to be told. And I had so much empathy for the character of Edgar because I definitely have family members who are getting older now and getting into retirement age, and they don’t want to. They have made so much identity and sense of self around whatever titles they’ve created in their careers.

Dan Conner (05:38)
Mm -hmm.

Ariel Landrum (05:56)
that transitioning to a different part of your life can be very scary. Was that ever a thought for you around Edgar?

Dan Conner (06:03)
You know, I didn’t really think about it in terms of relatives, but I definitely thought about, and again, no spoilers, but kind of how the story ends. I thought a lot about what he was facing, why he was facing this, having a new protege, having a replacement, how he kind of wants to support.

his vision for that, even though that isn’t necessarily the vision that comes to be. And so I think that those are themes that we face throughout transitions in our lives. That could be from one job to another. That could be a promotion at a job. That could be becoming a parent, anything like that, as well as like retirement, but probably retirement is…

Ariel Landrum (06:50)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (06:55)
more so that way because you in retirement, you might be going from primarily being a vocational person to being retired. And there’s probably a lot of lot that’s existential around that as well.

Ariel Landrum (07:10)
Yes, yes.

Stefanie (07:11)
Yeah, I love that you mentioned those different stages. A lot of people, especially kids who, or people in general who read graphic novels are not necessarily thinking about retirement. But when someone retires, someone else gets promoted. And I think the two in tandem was very interesting to see in your graphic novel as, you know, essentially one of them needs to get promoted, but, you know, who is it going to be? May the best, you know, character win, right?

And that’s when the story just jumps off so well because there needs to be a position that’s highly coveted that needs to be replaced. But what is the future of their world? What does the citizens have to say about all of it? I think it was really important for both Jack and Oogie Boogie to kind of be introspective in that way and look at themselves and see how do I want to do this? But I also want to beat my friend.

Ariel Landrum (08:09)
Spoilers now, if you haven’t read their graphic novel, Stef, you were really struck by their friendship because there was childlike play that was introduced. And I know for me as a therapist that works with children and uses play, I saw the dynamics that I do see sort of in my therapy room with at least with siblings. For you, you had mentioned like the competitiveness, you had mentioned like…

the struggle of trying to sustain a friendship when one person isn’t going to win and how you’ve seen that in the classroom and now in after school programming. And I was wondering if you could touch on that a little bit.

Stefanie (08:45)
Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, as a teacher, we love group projects, right? But also the kids kind of load them because, you know, you have, you play with power dynamics. Somebody is going to automatically be the leader. Somebody is going to step back all the way. But then, you know, you have your supporters here and there. And I think that was kind of the same thing where, you know, Oogie Boogie and Jack, all of these people, they all live in the same collective community. They’re all working together to make sure that, you know, the community is well and thriving. However,

Ariel Landrum (09:02)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Stefanie (09:15)
there is gonna be some point where they compete against each other. And I see that in the classroom sometimes, that’s when you really truly see the values of who these people grew up to be and how they deal with struggles. That’s when you really see kids raw selves, when they take themselves from a group setting and then they all of a sudden think, oh, I have to be graded now on my individual performance? Now what do I do? And I think that…

Ariel Landrum (09:15)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Stefanie (09:43)
that is beautifully mirrored in the graphic novel because you see these two very strongly, you know, they have very strong personalities and they want what’s best for them and they want what’s best for everyone else. However, they have different viewpoints of how they would take each other. I’m really trying not to spoil anything, but, you know, I think it was just, it was a beautiful struggle. And I think all friendships go through that.

Dan Conner (10:07)
Very cool. I’m glad you found that.

Ariel Landrum (10:10)
I’m curious for you, Dan, had you considered those differences in their personality or their childlike play and how it was going to branch out into how they perceive things like leadership or task orientation or taking on a project? Because there was a series of competitions that they were engaging in and it seemed like they had very different motivations and mindsets.

Dan Conner (10:34)
Oh definitely, they do especially with one specific group challenge that they had and I think that definitely plays into group dynamics, the element of leadership, as well as even like what you might see between siblings. I have two kids, a son and a daughter myself and I actually used to be a school teacher.

so, you can, you can observe how those different things happen. And I remember even in school, I was always the person in group projects that would do a lot of the work. I always was like, Hey, I want to get a really good grade on this. And there were, there were typically students who were, less concerned about working on it and just happy to, to get it in and kind of ride in on the,

Ariel Landrum (11:12)
Uh huh. Uh huh.

Dan Conner (11:26)
work that others of us did. And so, you know, you can kind of see that, I think, in the book, not in a bad way, but in a teamwork fashion. I think that everybody can, I think everyone plays their part. I guess I didn’t really think about someone.

who is essentially just kind of coasting in and letting the others do most of the work. But again, it’s kind of idealized. Comics are idealized, so maybe in that world everybody works together, or at least the ones that were on the teams.

Ariel Landrum (11:53)
Yes.

Stefanie (11:55)
Mm -hmm.

Ariel Landrum (11:58)
Mm -hmm.

Stefanie (11:58)
I knew you had some educator in you. When I was seeing the dynamics between the kids, I was like, this guy knows, he’s seen it in and around. It’s either he’s a parent or he used to be a teacher. It’s both. I love that. You only see these interactions presented in different mediums if you’ve seen it yourself. I think kids give you the most authentic versions of themselves when they’re playing. Because their world is basically,

Ariel Landrum (12:01)
Yes.

Dan Conner (12:09)
That’s great, wow.

Stefanie (12:26)
Halloween town where you play all the time. I mean, it doesn’t really seem like work to them. To me, the interactions between both Jack, Oogie Boogie, Sally, these are playground interactions. And, you know, they all just know that they’re working towards a goal. And I think that’s really great because it’s still so playful, but at the same time, it kind of teaches kids who are reading this that you can take something seriously, but make it fun. They know that it’s a big promotion. It’s a, you know, big shoes to fill, but at the same time,

you take a little bit of yourself and you take a little bit of that playfulness and you still try to reach that same goal. So that’s what I, you know, I think it was really great that not only, you know, the graphics help out with, you know, the visualization of the play, but, you know, their characters just kind of shine so brightly with, you know, the words and the different, you know, idioms that they use. It was really easy to just get immersed, which is probably why I didn’t do work for a really long time while I was reading it.

Ariel Landrum (13:20)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Absolutely.

Dan Conner (13:23)
That’s amazing. I’m really glad to hear that. And I’m glad you saw those elements that I didn’t necessarily think would be, I don’t want to say they wouldn’t be obvious, but there’s some meta cognition in that. So that’s very cool.

Ariel Landrum (13:38)
And for me, I kept noticing the theme of like friendship and rivalry going back and forth. And for my tweens, it’s like this idea of a frenemy or I guess what they say now is like, are we frenemies? Are you my op, my opposition? Right. And I was seeing that play out. And it seemed like the beginning we were seeing Jack and Oogie Boogie at a younger or earlier stage of development.

Dan Conner (13:50)
Okay.

Ariel Landrum (14:04)
And now when we were getting into their rivalry, it seemed like they were at a little slightly older. I felt like very tween or teen age where there’s this conflict that now our friendship has a new identity or is it still a friendship? I’m curious for you how you came up with that concept

Stefanie (14:11)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (14:21)
timing and age progression in the Nightmare Before Christmas world isn’t really defined. So we kind of, and I don’t want to misspeak for anything about Disney, but in the movie we kind of see that, or it seems that the characters are kind of fixed ages.

Ariel Landrum (14:39)
Mm -hmm.

Yes, yes.

Dan Conner (14:47)
You know, I imagine that Lock, Shock and Barrel are kids kind of all, you know, that’s what they are. Or there could be a very slow age progression. And that’s kind of how I imagine Jack and Oogie Boogie and Sally is that we don’t know how long they’ve been around. And we don’t know necessarily how long they will be around.

Ariel Landrum (14:52)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (15:14)
But I imagine that, I mean, Jack does say that he’s dead in the movie. And so there were questions about, and people have asked in fandom, who he was and or what he was like when he was alive. Because if you’re dead,

Ariel Landrum (15:23)
Yes, yes.

Dan Conner (15:38)
that implies that you died and that you were alive. I also imagine, and I’m not speaking for Disney, I also imagine that Jack could be a unique skeleton who is dead, but that’s his race. That he, and this is my imagination,

Ariel Landrum (16:02)
Oh, OK, OK.

Yeah.

Dan Conner (16:07)
that perhaps he had not previously been alive in a human form. There was one definition of the early Casper the Friendly Ghost comics, not the Steven Spielberg movie where Casper was a dead human, but the old comics and cartoons from Harvey. They had said that,

Stefanie (16:14)
Right.

Dan Conner (16:32)
because it’s kind of morbid to have like a dead kid. They had said that Casper was not a dead kid, but that he was from a race of ghosts and he was born as a ghost. So he’s still a ghost, but he’s not, he never died. And so I’m not saying that’s what Jack is and I’m not speaking for Disney.

Ariel Landrum (16:36)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Oh. Oh.

Stefanie (16:47)
Interesting.

Dan Conner (17:00)
this has not been explored in produced or written media or film. Right, exactly. And we have Jack in Battle for Pumpkin King as a younger skeleton.

Ariel Landrum (17:03)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s not canon canon.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (17:26)
So that could imply any manner of things as to what led to him at that state. But we know that he was at a schoolboy state as a skeleton. We know that. Whatever he had been before. And I think that as as maturity happens, they are at like a younger stage of development and

Ariel Landrum (17:40)
Yes.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (17:54)
He and Oogie kind of quickly advanced into more of a tween level. That’s actually around where my daughter was at the time. She just turned 13. So this was written a couple years ago and came out last year.

Ariel Landrum (18:05)
Okay.

Stefanie (18:07)
Mm -hmm.

Ariel Landrum (18:10)
And 13 year old girls know about frenemies.

Dan Conner (18:12)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go. But she’s, yeah, she’s great. But yeah, there’s a lot, a lot of friend dynamics. And so they were, we never gave it an exactly a fixed age of where they were. But, you know, they were kind of exhibiting a younger phase and then the growing up kind of occurs a little quickly.

Stefanie (18:15)
haha

Dan Conner (18:39)
And then I imagine that, as we know who’s Pumpkin King, not much of a spoiler, that Jack becomes Pumpkin King. And this is the story of how that happened. So we kind of know the end goal and that’s okay. And I imagine that he begins shortly thereafter. And so, I mean, essentially, right away. And…

Ariel Landrum (18:42)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Dan Conner (19:05)
And so you’ve got the progression into adulthood that happens kind of quickly. And if not firm adulthood, you know, cause you can be a king or queen as a child, especially throughout history, you know, the king might pass away or there could be wars, especially when kings were the leaders in battle. They could, they could, or,

Ariel Landrum (19:18)
Yes, yes.

Stefanie (19:20)
Right. Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (19:34)
assassinations that take place where someone purposely takes out the royalty so that they can become royalty. But in history, you see that. And so there were younger…

Ariel Landrum (19:39)
Yes.

Dan Conner (19:45)
royalty, especially in centuries past. And so I think that Jack could still be Pumpkin King when he’s not fully an adult. He may start his tenure and grow for a while until we see him in the movie. But

Ariel Landrum (20:04)
Hey.

Dan Conner (20:06)
But ultimately it’s fantasy. I think the book’s classified as manga fantasy. So it’s got scary elements, but I don’t really know if the word horror should be used, but it’s definitely monsters and skeletons and things like that and the boogeyman. And so, there could be any amount of time that passes

I think that, yeah, we do see some quickness in that in, in the book. even Sally. And there was a question about, when she was made and was she made by Dr. Finkelstein as, as in a fully formed adult rag doll. And we see her younger,

Ariel Landrum (20:37)
Yes,

Stefanie (20:38)
-hmm.

Right?

Dan Conner (20:49)
And so there she has progression too. there’s a story for her as well. even Lock, Chalk and Barrel as babies and then they’re, you know, kind of older kids are old enough to trick or treat by themselves in the movie, but they’re not teenagers. I kind of think of them as maybe older elementary, middle.

Ariel Landrum (20:52)
Yes, yes.

Dan Conner (21:09)
mid to older elementary But in this they’re definitely toddlers. And so, you know, it’s just how much do they experience throughout their lives between this book and the film. And I think that anyone can have an interpretation for that because it’s not set in canon.

Ariel Landrum (21:09)
Yeah.

Stefanie (21:30)
Yeah, absolutely. I think even now that you’re going through the history of monarchies and things like that, it could even be historical horror fiction, manga, sci -fi, all of it. Because now, if you’re bringing an element of monarchies into it, because they have the title of king, does that come with the other elements of monarchy, like queen or squire or are there knights who defend the kingdom? All of those things are possible.

Dan Conner (21:41)
Yeah!

Yeah.

Stefanie (21:59)
for the future, so I think that it’s such a, there’s so many layers to Nightmare Before Christmas that obviously you were able to create a whole backstory off of it. I’m curious to know, was it difficult to, not to branch out too far into those different layers? Because I know, you know, you’re trying to tell one story, but I’m sure all of these other creative elements were popping in your head. Was there another alternate way that you wanted, you know, maybe there was like a,

a B side to how you would want to take the story or was this really just it?

Dan Conner (22:33)
No, this is really it. And a lot of the reason is because the way that we did the comics, they’re 20 pages each and there’s five issues. So that gets us 120 pages. So, I mean, there’s a lot you can do in 120 pages, but there really isn’t all that much. So it’s and it’s all laid out, you know, kind of by scene and by by page because this page needs to have five panels.

Ariel Landrum (22:44)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (23:02)
because I’ve got to get this much occurring within three pages. Because if I don’t get that in three pages, well, I’m not going to have three pages for the end. And I want this full page spread because that’s going to communicate this. Or I want this double page spread. So if I do that double page spread, well, I’ve got to catch up to the number of panels on this other page. I’ve got to balance it. But I don’t want to have too many panels on the page because they get too small. And especially with manga.

Stefanie (23:12)
Right.

Ariel Landrum (23:14)
Okay, okay.

Dan Conner (23:32)
manga isn’t like Watchmen that has nine panels on each page. A lot of manga might even have two panels. and usually not more than like five. And so, you know, those are all elements that are balanced there. So there wasn’t really a, a much else to factor in. Now, I mean, I’d love to see a whole issue dedicated to Under Sea Gal, just like seeing what goes on with her.

Stefanie (23:37)
Right.

Ariel Landrum (23:42)
Mm -hmm.

Oh, yeah.

Dan Conner (23:59)
What’s her life like? What’s it like when she gets up in the morning? You know, I would love to see that. I was able to get her in the book in a number of scenes and I definitely wanted to pull in characters that you don’t see as much in the movie and that we didn’t really see in Zero’s Journey. So I wanted to feature characters like that. And yeah, I would love to have done side stories of…

Stefanie (23:59)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Dan Conner (24:26)
what else was going on with other characters at certain times, but with 120 pages, you really have to streamline it and focus on what’s essential. It’s almost like writing an email, I may start off writing a really long email because I have a lot of thoughts, but nobody wants to read that. So then,

Ariel Landrum (24:47)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (24:47)
Like the way I write emails is I’ll write out, like my draft will be long and then I’ll be like, okay, I restated this. I’m going to take that out when I restated it. Okay, this doesn’t add to it so that I can have something more concise So it’s very similar, I would say, writing comics when you have a lot to say. Now,

I know that sometimes in college someone gets an assignment for a paper and they’re like, oh, wow, I’ve got to fill 20 pages. And I remember feeling like that, like at my first papers I was writing in college. But by the time I was doing it, I was like, how can I get this down to 20 pages? So I think doing comics is the same way. And I know other writers too, like I’ve got a friend named Patricia Krumpertich and we write on other projects together. She actually did.

Ariel Landrum (25:16)
Yeah, yeah.

Stefanie (25:21)
Right?

Dan Conner (25:38)
the flat colors for Zero’s Journey. So she did a lot of the basic colors and then I would go in and add the details, make sure it was the right exact color that we wanted. And there’s a lot of different things about coloring comics that can be explored. But anyway, I’ll work with her on projects and I’ll be like, hey, we wanna keep this short. We want this to be a short story. So get all you can in the pages.

Stefanie (25:41)
Oh nice.

Ariel Landrum (25:42)
Oh, beautiful.

Dan Conner (26:06)
while also balancing the amount of panels. And it’s harder to write a shorter story than it is a longer one. So yeah, is there stuff in side stories to explore? Yes, but it wasn’t able to be done in 120 pages.

Ariel Landrum (26:21)
I think that’s really beautiful that you highlight the process of how you are creating the book. I know for some of my clients who are creatives, and then I also specialize in working with trauma survivors and I use a theory called narrative therapy where we talk about the trauma narrative. It can be very difficult to not put everything in there and make it without a feeling like it’s not clear or precise enough.

But when you can describe something in actually less or few words, it has more meaning and impact, even neurologically. And studies have shown that children who read graphic novels and comic books are actually more, they have a larger vocabulary range because you have to, you have such small space, you’re going to pick a very succinct word to describe what’s happening versus adding lots of thes or like all this extra language.

And so when I’m working with a client, being able to describe the process that you have just given where we can start off very long and then tailor it, and that isn’t changing the narrative, it’s enhancing it. it can help maybe potentially remove the fear of for my clients who are creatives, like because I edited it, does that mean it’s a failure? Right? I don’t know one person who’s like their final product.

was exactly the same as their first draft. And I’m curious for you Stef, like same with like children and writing, do you see them struggling with needing to make corrections and not internalizing it?

Stefanie (27:51)
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I taught fourth grade and that’s when we’re learning how to make essays. And you’re learning the, you know, the three paragraph thesis, supporting paragraphs. And they didn’t really, I mean, there were some struggles of them just writing something because they’re like, how am I possibly going to write, you know, a paragraph with five sentences and then make it, you know, make sense and all these things. And they would do it. But then when I gave them the challenge to, okay,

now make just one paragraph and tell me everything you need to tell me in one paragraph, one thesis, three supporting sentences, and one conclusion. That’s when their minds would just explode. They were like, how do I edit? How do I, you know? And I think that’s when I was in college too, it’s like, yeah, like you said, Dan, write a 20 page paper. That’s like a marathon, right? But then to be able to write a one pager,

Ariel Landrum (28:35)
you

Stefanie (28:47)
and try to get everything in there, that’s really the challenge because I think, you know, we could just word vomit if we really wanted to But then in order to, you know, capture the reader and also make everything succinct, like you said, I think that’s where the real challenge and the real skill is, you know, tested because now you have to be very mindful with your words. You have to be very mindful with your placement.

And you got to know, you know, what’s going to pack the punch, but also what’s going to support what I have to say. it’s great to hear like the manga writing process is it’s challenging, but in kind of a good way, because you do have to do so much with so little and how you broke it down. I think that’s really important for people, you know, who are listening, who are aspiring to become comic book artists or manga artists or manga writers to really look at their storytelling process.

and practice that so that they can convey what they need to in the right way or in the way they want to.

Dan Conner (29:44)
Oh, definitely. But I believe that, you know, each panel is kind of like a moment in time. you can have something said and something a response. But once you get back and forth between.

statement response, statement response, statement response. And you see that more in American comics and superhero comics because sometimes they’ll have a lot of back and forth in a panel. You don’t see that in manga as much. And I mean, even though I wrote this in America, it wasn’t written in Japan or illustrated in Japan, TOKYOPOP is still a manga company. And so…

Ariel Landrum (30:21)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (30:27)
It’s still going to be with AmeriManga or Western Manga, original English language manga. It’s still going to be with those characteristics. And so I don’t know if it’s because I’ve read a lot of manga. I’ve probably read more Western comics.

Stefanie (30:30)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (30:46)
which isn’t necessarily the same as manga, when we think of comic books in America, I mean, ultimately most of us are thinking of superheroes, but there’s so many other types of comics and a lot of like auto bio.

Ariel Landrum (30:55)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Stefanie (30:56)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (31:00)
comics, you know, they’re not, they’re, they’re not necessarily going to have all this back and forth in one panel. And it’s not an old sci -fi pulp magazine where you’re paid by the word.

Stefanie (31:12)
Right.

Dan Conner (31:14)
I could imagine if you were one of those writers, Ray Bradbury, that he wrote a lot of early stories. And as I’ve learned, a lot of that’s paid by the word or was paid by the word.

Ariel Landrum (31:15)
Thank you.

Stefanie (31:19)
Mm -hmm. Oh, right. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (31:31)
And so, you know, then you might want to use all the adjectives you can. You might want to write longer sentences. I’ve never written like that. So I don’t, I don’t know, but I’m sure it would be a lot. It would be so easy to add a lot of synonyms and sentences and rephrase things and clauses because you can get extra five words in there. But comics are, I think they should be so different. Some are very wordy.

Ariel Landrum (31:39)
Okay, good point.

Stefanie (31:41)
hahaha

Dan Conner (32:00)
You can look at amazing X -Men comics by Chris Claremont from the 80s and they are very word heavy. And there are some cartoonists in recent years who’ve still done that, but for the most part, that’s not the practice anymore. And you’re also balancing it with the art. I don’t prefer it when you’ve got really great art.

Stefanie (32:05)
Mm -mm.

Ariel Landrum (32:06)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Dan Conner (32:22)
that artists do and then the letterer goes in and puts the word balloons when it wasn’t really planned for that. Whereas this is kind of crazy. Brian Lee O’Malley, I learned this from him, from Scott Pilgrim, he said, I think it’s in volume five that he gives his guide to making comics at just a few pages, that you do the word balloons first or you do the word balloons.

Stefanie (32:32)
Mmm.

Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (32:50)
as you sketch out the art. And that’s kind of an easier thing, because then you’re not losing 25 % of your drawings. Like, why draw it if it’s going to be covered up with balloons?

Stefanie (32:52)
Right.

Ariel Landrum (32:54)
Okay, okay.

Stefanie (33:00)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (33:04)
but I just think things should be intentional, whether it’s the word balloons or the art and even the color

Ariel Landrum (33:10)
Mm -hmm.

Stefanie (33:13)
that’s like group dynamics, right? You’re trying to figure out the balance with the artist, the writer, the editor. I mean, like I tell my students, everything’s gonna be a group project when you grow up, whether you’re working, whether you’re with your family. And I think that’s really important because, right, the art, especially in manga, is so beautiful and striking. I mean, in any publication, whether it’s comic books or anything.

Dan Conner (33:15)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (33:22)
colorist.

Stefanie (33:37)
you want that balance, you want to make sure that right, you are intentional in what you’re doing because that conveys the best versions of the storytelling. And I think that’s really important to know that putting something like this together, all the way from the history of the characters to how you’re going to present it, to the editing, all of that is so important. And that’s why I love manga in comic books, just because it’s…

Dan Conner (33:45)
Right.

Stefanie (34:03)
It’s such a full way of telling a story, visually, emotionally, all of that.

Dan Conner (34:08)
Right.

Ariel Landrum (34:08)
And I’m hearing all this intentionality with the way that you are conceptualizing what you’re going to create. And given that Nightmare Before Christmas has essentially a huge following, a huge fan base that has just grown since the film came out. Cause I know when it first came out, it wasn’t received as well. And it’s more of, I don’t know the nostalgia, the retrospect, but also like.

you know, alternative and goth communities coming into Disney, like it has this big heavy meaning. What did you have to do to ensure that your graphic novel was not only appealing to those longtime fans, but really was bringing in newer fans again, because it is very accessible reading for even a younger audience. And it is telling their story as younger characters.

Dan Conner (34:59)
So when you’re going to do something with a popular property, you really want to consider the existing fans of that property. And I think that we’ve all seen a sequel to a movie that was not embraced and or especially an adaptation to another form of media.

Ariel Landrum (35:10)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Or like one that surprised people how embraced, like Five Night at Freddy’s. That movie went so big and, cause it had such a strong fandom already. And the creators really considered the age of the fandom even by like making sure it wasn’t an R rated film though easily could have been.

Dan Conner (35:37)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, my kids call it FNAF. So I think that’s one of the popular. Yeah, they just say it like that. And I was like, what is this? And they’re like Five Nights at Freddy’s. I was like, oh, OK. So with yeah, with things like that, with with any adaptation or addition to a popular franchise. Yeah, you don’t want to alienate the original fan base.

Stefanie (35:42)
Yep.

Ariel Landrum (35:42)
Yes, yes, FNAF, that’s it.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (36:06)
and you really want something that will add to the fandom. I do a lot of comic conventions. I was at one yesterday. It was great. I’m in Florida, so it was the Melbourne Toy and Comic Con in Melbourne, Florida. So that was really great. And, you know, there’ll be people who come up and I’ll hear one of a few things like,

Ariel Landrum (36:20)
Okay.

Dan Conner (36:28)
Now I’m hearing, oh, I just bought that, which is great. And I always say, well, I do a lot of appearances, so keep up with me, especially if they’re local and, you know, bring it next time and I’ll sign it. And, and sometimes I also just do like a sketch or something for them, like at least you can get this. And then I have people who will come up and especially with the Zeroe’s Journey issues, because I don’t have all 20 issues of that, which I call.

Ariel Landrum (36:32)
you

Yeah.

Dan Conner (36:55)
And so I have, because that came out a few years ago and I have some of the specific issues and the ones that I still have in stock, especially I don’t really have any of the earlier issues anymore. And so I’ll say, yeah, I’ve got some of them and I definitely want you to be able to find an issue that you like. I get that I might not have all of them, but you can always read it in the graphic novels and collect the issues as you as you like. And so those people will be.

Ariel Landrum (36:58)
Mm -hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Dan Conner (37:24)
pretty serious fans and they might buy every issue that I have with me like someone did that yesterday. And at many conventions, that’s what will happen. And a lot of times those are the folks who say, I’ve never heard of this. before. And then I do have some people that will say, well, I haven’t seen the movie.

Ariel Landrum (37:32)
Wonderful. Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Conner (37:41)
and I’ll say, oh, well, this book’s perfect because it’s a prequel, so you can start there. So you never know, and especially with kids, they may stumble potentially on the book in their house as a toddler grabbing books off the shelves before they may see the movie and they may flip through a book as a toddler. So I imagine there could be people who find Nightmare Before Christmas.

Ariel Landrum (37:52)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (38:09)
initially through comics and then see the movie. It could be based on if they have it on demand or on a disc versus when it’s on Freeform all of October through December.

Ariel Landrum (38:12)
Yes, yes.

Dan Conner (38:23)
And so it’s definitely a balance, but you want to do something that is going to be embraced. There’s such a fervor for Nightmare Before Christmas. People love Beauty and the Beast, but I don’t see as many Beauty and the Beast tattoos as I see Nightmare tattoos. There’s a lot of those, and people have full sleeves of Nightmare, and that’s a dedication. That’s a huge dedication. That’s expensive, and it’s painful.

Ariel Landrum (38:41)
Hmm.

Yes, yes, yes.

Dan Conner (38:52)
And that means everywhere you go forever, people will see this and know that you’re a fan. And that’s the good thing. And it’s what you’re communicating.

But for the most part, kids light up when they when they see the book covers on my on my

Ariel Landrum (39:07)
Yes, yes.

Dan Conner (39:09)
my table or the Tokyopop table booths at conventions. And so I want to be able to do something that honors everybody.

Stefanie (39:18)
I think the accessibility part is so important because Nightmare Before Christmas has gotten so big. I mean, whenever you go to Disneyland now, it’s not Haunted Mansion, it’s Nightmare Before Christmas. And that’s how my kids were introduced to it. I have a one and a three -year -old and they know Jack because they’ve seen them on the ride before they even saw the movie. So they already know how to hum, la, la, la, la, la, la. That’s what they know.

Ariel Landrum (39:29)
Uh -huh. Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (39:33)
Oh good.

Ariel Landrum (39:43)
La la la la la.

Stefanie (39:44)
So, I mean, I think it’s great that, like, as you mentioned, the movie is originally PG. I mean, it came out when I was younger. I wasn’t necessarily, I was like, I know this is, it’s scary, but I know it could be for kids, but yet it’s PG and it has a lot of themes that, you know, aren’t necessarily meant for younger children, but still because of the styles of their characters.

Ariel Landrum (40:05)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Stefanie (40:10)
It’s very cartoony and it’s very animated and the stop motion obviously is beautiful to see and it can be appreciated by infants because they latch onto those types of visuals. So I think with the franchise growing so large and Halloween being essentially branded almost by Nightmare Before Christmas all the way up until the holiday season, I think it’s very great that there’s your publication now that can kind of bridge that gap.

Ariel Landrum (40:15)
Yes, now.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Dan Conner (40:34)
there.

Stefanie (40:38)
and can kind of be like, hey, you know, there is a story that you could read as, you know, an emerging reader and, you know, an emerging lover of comics to kind of, you know, give them that little step before they experience the movie. Then they can fully understand the way that the characters grow.

Ariel Landrum (40:38)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (40:58)
it is hard to have something that’s appealing to kids and parents and anyone in between or, or,

It’s like Lego say ages like eight to 100 or something. So it’s sad if you’re 101, but yeah. So yeah, exactly. So yeah, it’s hard to do that. And I think that’s another reason that the movie is so cherished because there’s a lot of introspection within the characters. And you don’t see that in a lot of PG films or children’s films.

Ariel Landrum (41:08)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, mm -hmm.

Hahaha!

Stefanie (41:14)
They’ll enjoy the visuals, it’s fine.

Ariel Landrum (41:29)
Yep. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (41:34)
You don’t, yeah, I think there’s a lot of self -exploration there.

Ariel Landrum (41:38)
Yeah, I think last year was the 30th anniversary of the film. And I had seen them do it at the Hollywood Bowl. So the Hollywood Bowl is a lot outside theater, and there’s a live orchestra. The LA Philharmonic plays the music. And Danny Elfman was, of course, there singing.

Dan Conner (41:55)
Au revoir.

Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (42:03)
Peewee Herman, Paul Rubin’s voice, Locke in the movie. Yes, but he had passed away.

Dan Conner (42:06)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stefanie (42:07)
Yeah, right, yes.

Ariel Landrum (42:11)
so Fred Armisen was on stage, he was singing Locke. And I didn’t know this, but I guess he is a singer. He has a punk rock band I didn’t know about. He’s a big musician, yeah. And so they had dedicated that segment, obviously, to Paul Rubin’s. And it was so lovely to see it at the Hollywood Bowl. And people were dressed up. They had a costume contest in the beginning. And even…

Stefanie (42:18)
Oh, he’s a big musician.

Dan Conner (42:20)
Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (42:36)
Before that, here in Los Angeles at the El Capitan Theater, they every year will play Nightmare Before Christmas and they will do it 4-D where it snows in the theater because the El Capitan is owned by Disney. So I’ve seen this film sort of like branch out into so many things. And then at the parks, you know, they have Oogie Boogie Bash and that celebrates like Oogie Boogie who’s supposed to be essentially like this bad guy, but we don’t really

Think of him as a bad guy. I think your comics added that to me. He’s a great host.

Stefanie (43:08)
We know he’s a good host. He’s a great host because he runs the whole thing. But yeah, I mean, essentially Oogie Boogie could be the villain, but yet they make him into not just that. And I think that is, you know, you can only do that with so many characters. And because he’s such a larger than life character and because, you know, we know he sings, I think that adds so many elements to where you can see him as a main character. And now knowing that…

Dan Conner (43:11)
Okay.

Ariel Landrum (43:15)
It’s always the whole thing.

Dan Conner (43:16)
Yeah.

Stefanie (43:37)
him and Jack had a history to where they were pretty much equals. I think that kind of elevates his story even further, which is what’s great about your comic book is that it gives you that validation.

Ariel Landrum (43:39)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (43:41)
again.

Thank you.

Mm -hmm. Well, he’s the boogeyman. He’s scary and you’re afraid of the boogeyman when you’re a kid. But… And there’s, you know, he’s got Santa in the movie and that’s, you know, you can contemplate the ethics of that.

Ariel Landrum (44:03)
Mm -hmm.

Stefanie (44:07)
what he does to Santa kind of throws him around like a rag doll.

Ariel Landrum (44:10)
Yeah, yeah.

Dan Conner (44:11)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But he’s still, he’s spookier more than necessarily. I don’t want to say he’s not malicious. I don’t want to take away from his personhood as a villain. But, you know, he’s still fun. Like, like He’s he’s almost like a fun villain. And I guess you could look at all Disney movies and debate who was fun and who wasn’t as far as the villains and maybe they’re all fun to some degree.

Stefanie (44:38)
I think Oogie Boogie’s like a puppet. I think that’s why kids gravitate towards him, because he’s essentially like, you know, you can see him on Sesame Street if you really wanted to, because they can make him like a puppet. And I think that’s why toddlers love Oogie Boogie so much, because he’s big, he’s green, he has a large personality, and he looks like a puppet. So, you know, I think…

Ariel Landrum (44:38)
Yes, yes. Yeah.

Dan Conner (44:42)
Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (44:48)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (45:00)
Yeah.

Stefanie (45:01)
As we’ve seen in Disney villains, I think the scariest villains are the ones who look just like us, like Gaston and his ego. villains that we’ve mentioned in a previous episode that it’s not the fantastical villains that are scary. It’s like the ones that look like Cruella who are just not fun to be around.

Ariel Landrum (45:09)
-hmm. Mm -hmm. Yes.

Dan Conner (45:17)
Yeah.

Ariel Landrum (45:17)
Yeah. Yeah.

Stefanie (45:20)
And I think there’s so many layers to it. I think that’s the beauty of this story can you let our listeners know where we can find the book and any other little things that, or maybe the next place that you’ll be in terms of comic book conventions if they want to come say hi to you.

Ariel Landrum (45:21)
Absolutely.

Dan Conner (45:25)
I’m here.

Ariel Landrum (45:29)
Yeah.

or upcoming projects.

Dan Conner (45:38)
Yes, yes, yes. So let’s see, you can get the book from pretty much any major or independent bookseller. I know that I do some signings at Barnes and Noble as well as Books of Million, but Barnes and Noble I think is national. So you can definitely get it at Barnes and Noble.

You can get it at your local comic book shop. If they don’t have it on the shelf, they can order it for you. I love local comic shops. I do signings at those as well. Meanwhile, the Tokyopop website, tokyopop.com does have it available.

I will be at San Diego Comic-Con this summer, so that’s going to be really good. Yeah, I’ll be there with Tokyopop, so you don’t have to look in the guide to find where one, you know, of all the tables that are available, like where I would be. I’ll be with Tokyopop, so that makes it pretty simple. The next convention I’m doing…

Ariel Landrum (46:19)
Woo hoo hoo!

Dan Conner (46:35)
is Portsmouth MiniCon in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. And that’s gonna be, yeah, that’s pretty soon. So that’s on like the, I think the 27th or 28th of April. then I’m doing free Comic Book Day at a store in Florida. That’s on May 4th that I don’t believe has been announced yet.

Ariel Landrum (46:42)
Are you okay?

Dan Conner (47:00)
So, so yeah, so I have that coming up and I’m doing Denver Fan Expo

Stefanie (47:00)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Conner (47:06)
I’m @crazygoodconner. That’s where the E are at on pretty much every social media platform. So you can keep up there to find where I’ll be.

Ariel Landrum (47:16)
Beautiful, beautiful. And as always, we are @happiestpodGT on Instagram and on X and on Facebook. If you want to send us any questions, if you want to tell us your experiences with Nightmare Before Christmas, how maybe the stories have touched you or what your favorite characters are, please let us know.

And before we end, final question for you, Dan, is Nightmare Before Christmas a Halloween movie or Christmas movie?

Dan Conner (47:46)
Oh yeah, I think it’s both. You know, there was a panel that we did last summer at San Diego Comic-Con with Disney and that was pretty much the consensus from everybody. And yeah, I think it’s both. I mean, if you really had to get down to it, Christmas is in the title. So there is that as far as branding and it starts off with a Halloween song. So.

Ariel Landrum (47:48)
you

Okay.

Ohhhh

Stefanie (48:05)
Yep. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Ariel Landrum (48:13)
Yeah.

Dan Conner (48:14)
I think it’s both. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a Thanksgiving movie. It takes place over Thanksgiving in between. So.

Stefanie (48:16)
I’m in that camp, I think it’s both.

Ariel Landrum (48:18)
Same, same.

Stefanie (48:21)
It does. We just don’t see them eating together, do we? I know Oogie Boogie does. He eats a lot. So yeah, it is a Thanksgiving movie. He eats a lot of bugs.

Ariel Landrum (48:22)
yes yeah no no

Dan Conner (48:27)
I know, yeah.

Ariel Landrum (48:30)
He eats a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Conner (48:31)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s kind of throughout there. It’s a lot of it’s, well, I guess because I mean, it takes place in November and December, you know, leading up to Christmas. So, yeah.

Ariel Landrum (48:41)
Yeah. In therapy, we say yes and. Beautiful.

Stefanie (48:42)
This is true.

Dan Conner (48:46)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m always yes and. I’ve learned not to say but. And so yeah, it’s always, well, this is true and this is true.

Stefanie (48:58)
All right.

Ariel Landrum (48:57)
Well, thank you so much for coming on our podcast. We really appreciate it. This was a wonderful conversation.

Dan Conner (49:01)
Thank you.

Yeah, it’s been great.

Media/Characters Mentioned
  • The Nightmare Before Christmas
  • Jack Skellington
  • Oogie Boogie
  • Sally
  • Edgar (former Pumpkin King)
  • Lock, Shock, and Barrel
  • Tokyopop
  • Oogie Boogie Bash
  • LA Philharmonic
  • Hollywood Bowl
  • Danny Elfman
  • Paul Reubens
  • Fred Armisen
Topics/Themes Mentioned
  • Friendship and rivalry
  • Transitions in life
  • Storytelling in comics
  • American comics vs. manga
  • Visual styles in storytelling
  • The process of creating comics
  • Fan engagement and cultural impact
  • Accessibility and appeal to different age groups

Website: happy.geektherapy.com
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 | Stef on Twitter: @stefa_kneee | Ariel on Instagram: @airyell3000 |
| Dan on Instagram: @CrazyGoodConner | Facebook: CrazyGoodConner | X: @CrazyGoodConner Website: http://www.connercomics.com/

Geek Therapy is a 501(c)(3) non-profit that advocates for the effective and meaningful use of popular media in therapeutic, educational, and community practice.
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Welcome to The Happiest Pod on Earth! On the Geek Therapy Network we believe that the best way to understand each other, and ourselves, is through the media we care about. On this show, we focus exclusively on Disney!

Hosted by Stefanie Bautista and Ariel Landrum!

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